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So I'm listening to the Gottman "fight right" audio book and whilst it is interesting I find myself questioning whether these books are really relevant to those on this forum.

So I recall listening to the 7 principles, it was a few months ago and there were good bits in that (wasn't a fan of the questionnaire aspect) however I recall my BS pointing out that actually none of it was relevant because it's not affair related and that we aren't on the same level etc....essentially, I destroyed the marriage and therefore should expect the "4 horseman".

I understand that she is hurt, after listening to rising strong I realise that actually I should be looking at our struggles and realising that she is doing just her best with the shit sandwich I have given her so can drop the self-entitlement and the feeling scorned by her words ...

So my question today, is it possible to have a difficult or emotional conversation where the 4 horsemen are not present? As a WS I expect to stick to the 7 principles but as a BS is it wrong to think maybe (unless provoked) those principles should also apply... within reason and given due credit to the reason why we are in this position.

As he says in his latest book anger is absolutely necessary (I expect it) but in these conflicts it has to be channelled correctly ie not allow the horseman such as contempt or criticism in.

Honestly in affair recovery I think Gottmans 4 stages of healing from an affair would be much more pertinent to healing from infidelity.

I think they are attone, attune, attach. . .going off of memory so I could have wrong, but if you google it you will find it.

Ah ha thank you, I'll have a bit more of a Google on that and see what else i can find. I did read though that the 4 horseman should still not creep in when having discussions about the A which kind of answers my question. It would be good to hear all your views though as I appreciate they may not have lived through what all here have.

Agree with numb.

But- a pattern I see with you is "I am going to come correct and doesn’t she have to as well?"

The answer is no, but eventually yes.

It’s going to take consistency and effort on your end for a long time. You haven’t yet even laid down a track record. So, no you can’t expect her to soften immediately.

Best advice I can give is mind your side of the street in hopes that you can regain some of her faith in you. Rinse and repeat. Let go of the outcome and definitely do not make suggestions on how she is to react to you. Give that a long good try.

I do not think that the "we are not equal in this relationship" is what the outcome of R should look like but due to your anger issues and responses up until at least now, you haven’t really even started an earnest R, much less completed one.

I think if you really learn and change you will see some softening. But expect months not days or weeks.

I think I suggested Gottman to you to look at what healthy conflict resolution is. For your side of the equation for now.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:54 PM, Tuesday, October 8th]

Not saying you are necessarily doing this, but my STBXW used the 4 horseman as a club against me. Here is a link to one of my earliest threads, could help you see your question for a BS’s perspective.

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/topics/659906/4-horsemen-and-recovery/

I agree that "what makes love last" is sort of step one (atone, attune, attach).

I believe 7 principles is still really good for reaching a common understanding on issues.

You have a big fat one that you own, which is the affair. Is that a permanent or resolvable issue at its core?

The objective of these tools, is of course, to work together. If either of you is weaponizing them against the other it isn't useful.

If you are going to try to resolve something, the 4 horsemen aren't going to help. It's still useful to recognize them when they happen and try to cool down. The objective of that though, is to return to solving the issue, not to say, "HEY THAT'S CONTEMPT, ARGUMENT REJECTED!" or "Of course I think you're a cheating prick, because you are a cheating prick".

OK, well, if R is the objective, calling your spouse a cheating prick isn't going to solve the issue. So "I understand you're angry, and you deserve to be angry. I'm sorry about what I have done. Right now, we are trying to work through [my issue] and figure out options for better decision making that would make you more comfortable. We can take a few minutes if you need to cool off."

I remember how things were shortly after D-day. Prior to D-day, we had a marriage, and so, everything we did, we did as a couple. If housework needed to be done or bills had to be paid, we figured that out together. If we needed to make an effort as a couple to change the way we handled things, we did that together. But after the affair, I honestly still had that mindset in my head. *I* had cheated, and yet I still felt that *we* needed to address that and repair it as a couple. And I wanted it to be fixed now. Today. ASAP. The fact that my wife didn't seem to give a shit and wasn't particularly gung-ho to start fixing things and "getting back to normal" flabbergasted me. Imagine that. 20 years together and now she seemed uninterested. Mind boggling. (Not)

Think of it this way. Imagine a guy keys your car. When you confront him, he seems less interested in discussing what he's done to the car or how he's going to make you whole again, and more interested in pointing out the places he noticed that you consistently miss when washing the car. You know, he wants to discuss what YOU did wrong, and the steps you should take to fix it. Considering that this asshole just keyed your car, how open do you think you'll be to discussing your car washing techniques? With him? And taking his advice on how to wash the car he just destroyed? It's not that he's wrong about you missing the spots on the car, but it's completely inappropriate to bring that up to you considering his part in this story.

Post-affair marriage is like that. You fucked up. Why should your spouse give a shit about saving the marriage? Why give a shit about how you feel or what you think she needs to do? Why does she need to make an effort to save the marriage you unilaterally destroyed? Trust me when I tell you that she doesn't give a shit about horsemen or principles or anything else you've read, and she sure as hell isn't interested in your opinion of what "she should be doing". The only thing she may possibly care about is how YOU are handling things post D-day, and how YOU plan to move forward to try and rectify the damage you just did. She needs to see you making an effort. You have no rights right now... not as far as your marriage is concerned. Why? Because you chose to destroy the marriage. Because you made that decision for her. Because you seem to think that the thing you destroyed is salvagable. And you expect her to get right on that.

Look, don't get me wrong. Reading, learning, asking questions, making changes, these are good things, appropriate things, things you SHOULD be doing, and I'm sure your wife is watching. But just like the guy that keyed the car, you have no standing here, your opinion is not needed or wanted, and if you want to fix someone, go fix yourself.

At some point, if you do the work, if you make changes, and if she has a reason to trust those changes, then a door may open for you. If she sees you putting in massive effort, whether she's making an effort or not, then that might sway her to drop her walls a bit. When you are someone capable of being a supportive and loving partner, then you may get the chance. But it will take time. A lot of time. And a lot of effort. And yes, it is 100% worth it. But get that thought out of your head now, the one that is telling you that you still have an equal, balanced marriage in which both parties need to make an effort. That's a recipe for disaster. You threw her and the marriage in the trash. There is no marriage to save because you made sure of that. So you have to start over again, as if you've never met, and create something new together. But that's chapter twelve. You're still on chapter one, if even.

Like I said, you're doing the right things in terms of learning about yourself. Good job, keep that up! It is vital that you start changing the way you think and react, and to do so, you first need to understand WHY and HOW you are broken (what led to you having an affair, and being defensive, and all that) and taking steps to fix that.

Going back to the guy who keyed the car, imagine that, instead of telling how to wash the car, he instead seems really affected by what he did. He promises to repaint the entire car, and he pays for everything without you even having to ask. While the car is in the shop, he gives you his car, and offers to drive you if you want. He takes anger management classes, attends every class, and is active in his efforts to change. He also joins a support group for people with anger issues, and every week, he tells you what he's learned and how he's made changes regarding his new information. Every step of the way, he takes full ownership of what he's done, is truly mortified to his soul that he did what he did, and is hell-bent on being a better person, whether it fixes your car or not, but he still makes sure he does all he can to make you whole. Now, would you perhaps consider forgiving him? Are you at least more likely to forgive him then if he had tried to give you advice about washing the car?

That's where you need to be with your wife. You have to be the one to make the changes, make the effort, take the blame, and show humility, compassion and understanding. Do that, and you might just be surprised at how things can change. Don't do it, and nothing will change. Except that maybe you'll be divorced.

You've got this. You are clearly an intelligent and driven person. That's good. Now you just need to put that effort forth, and do your best to stop trying to control the outcome(s). The outcome you should control is your own. Decide what outcome you want for yourself, and then go do it.

Thank you for all your comments and replies and this does all make sense. To just clarify one bit:-

*I do not hold myself on an equal level (I doubt I ever will) and I truly understand that she has every right to be angry etc and that will involve at times the name calling and other comments which truly stings (but not half as much as what she has been through).*

The reason this has come up is due to the fact that the last few times when we have had some discussions and I have been true to my values (respectful, empathetic and understanding) she has become frustrated and angrily told me that my voice is irritating and to leave her alone. I didn’t react till the other day when I simply said to her that I was going upstairs and that was that, no anger/bittnerness just plain upset because by doing the right thing I am now told I am irritating …. I have since been told that I should have stayed put and that she felt abandoned and that she does find it irritating but explained why and while I understand that now.. it seemed extremely counter-productive to try and talk to someone if they are telling you that your voice is irritating and that it is making them angrier!

A slight gripe I have had throughout the last few years though which led to this post is around that entitlement and whether I expect too much and the point of this post was to really dig into the Gottman styles and see if they are relevant which clearly they are not. Even reading material on the steps last night it points out that *ANY* discussion should be done without the 4 horseman being present because how can you really reach any closure on points of discussion if one party is just opening with criticism and contempt and shouting you down. This is not to say that every conversation goes this way because outside of all this we do communicate about the daily grind well but there are naturally some events that cause her to be more frustrated and emotional then others which then makes me feel that if we were to approach these chats differently ie no contempt etc then we may actually get these matters resolved!

I know it frustrates my BS, she will tell me till she is blue in the face and pulling out her hair that I am wrong, my way of thinking is fucked up and that I am the one with the fucked up brain so need to be listening to what she is saying….but here is my dilemma….I have been reading, listening and exploring this site and I find material which is contrary to her opinion (she hasn’t read any of the books, but is on here) so unless I just sit there and become the "yes man" and white knuckle it as others have said of their unsuccessful ws I do not feel that I will ever truly learn or appreciate what it is that I need to do differently! I need to challenge my thoughts so it gives me direction as to where I go but I feel my BS essentially checks out when this happens and I get "if that’s your way of thinking we are done as your clearly not remorseful or empathetic " or told "I don’t love you and we are done" either way it just very much feels that unless from the outset I don’t agree then its going to result in absolute carnage.

It becomes somewhat of a vicious cycle because the atmosphere becomes toxic and heavy, issues are not addressed because it turns to chaos and when I then discuss or bring the issue up to address it we end up in this spiral of just anger and contempt again….

ink, I am reading your thread and I am grateful for you taking the time to share this with me. I note immediately you mention that your WS doesn’t handle the big stuff…this is not my problem I can take the conversations and am more than happy to have the hard chats but where I struggle is when anger and contempt are present almost from the outset like I say it’s not every conversation but the other day for example she asks how I was able to leave the family home (we have two kids) and how I could do this to her, I tried to explain (with empathy and calmness) that I don’t think she ever really could understand because she hasn’t got the WS mindset and given my place in this A I was able to justify and explain it to myself that our M was fatal and never going to be fixed….It was there that I got told my voice is irritating and to stop talking and that my response doesn’t help her! I will continue to read your thread thanks.

I want to be able to talk to her about the problems in our M that I created and ones which were present before all this, I know there are a number of WS that just want to hide behind their shame etc but I am not one….I just wish that she could see that all I am trying to do is share my thoughts and feelings and if wrong/misguided address these rather than just harbouring them and thus breeding my own contempt because somewhere deep down I feel she is wrong (which I know is not the case here!) because I have no one else to talk with.

ink, I am reading your thread and I am grateful for you taking the time to share this with me. I note immediately you mention that your WS doesn’t handle the big stuff…this is not my problem I can take the conversations and am more than happy to have the hard chats but where I struggle is when anger and contempt are present almost from the outset…

Glad you are finding it useful. And as always, take what you can use, leave the rest. I re-read that thread after I sent it, there is a lot of excellent advice in there that I think is relevant even with the differences between you and my STBXW.

I really like DaddyDom’s car keying analogy. I’ve come to the conclusion that the only just response to infidelity is divorce. Might even be the only rational reaction, less sure about that statement. But R is unnatural, in a sense. It’s like becoming best friend with the guy who keyed your car. And, you know, if the offender does everything DD describes, then maybe that person would grow into being best friend material. If I found a woman that previously had an affair but talked like hikingout or WOES or BSR does, I would be very intrigued. But to attempt R without that seems to me to be nothing more than an exercise of massive loss aversion. You need to become that, all while knowing it’s not a guarantee.

I can sympathize with the negativity you face. I’m sure it would be frustrating to hear you are irritating. And also, friend, that is a gnat bite in comparison to the hole you blew in her heart. And even to the angry outbursts that you have reported allowing yourself until rather recently. There is no asking a BS to get thru R in a perfectly civil manner. Find some way to fortify yourself to endure her righteous anger. Think of it as helping her with her shit sandwich that you hoisted upon her. Something. Don’t accept abuse, but you owe it to her to take on a shit ton of negativity.

ETA: I hope your wife might consider getting support here. She also has a responsibility to learn and grow if she wants to R, and she will find so much benefit in her personal healing with the comraderie of this community. (Clearly this is a shameless direct plea to your wife, who I assume reads your content )

[This message edited by InkHulk at 3:03 PM, Wednesday, October 9th]

I hear what you are saying TinyTim-

But you have come here multiple times talking about how you lashed out in anger or defensiveness, failing to recognize in the moment that you created this pain. Of course outside of the moment you have regrets, and I do think you are striving to be better.

But from her perspective, all this has kept her from liking you. I think you can love and be committed to someone and not like them very much at times, especially in this instance where she has been waiting so long to be shown something.

Duck feathers, let it roll off your back. You will never be in control of anything but yourself. Focus on that.

I do think you are right, there are times where she may not seem like she wants you to talk. She is tired of hearing so many things. And I am saying this based on what you have collectively posted.

The best thing to do in those moments is "I understand why you feel that way. I would love to talk about this more when you are ready. I love you and I am here and I am not going anywhere. And then you just take it.

Again, I don’t think this is forever. I think that you as the ws have to repair the dynamic and you have done a lot that has worked against you and your connection with her. Keep being vulnerable and open and over time she just may see this is the new norm and be less disbelieving and annoyed at it.

And in the end you also can seek your own divorce or separation if you can’t be happy in this relationship. I am just not hearing that in your posts, and I am hearing many epiphanies that if you embrace and modify yourself for- well let’s just say that will never be wasted. Even if the marriage still ends, these are skills you need in life in general.

Your posts just keep reading hinged a hit in her reactions. Her reactions have not had any time to change even though you are probably seeing the situation very differently than you were.

I don’t think the only reaction to infidelity is divorce. I think most BS need some time to gain their equilibrium, and I was not this version of myself 5-7 years ago when we were reconciling.

I used to have a theory that if the marriage was good before the chances are better because you know a great relationship is possible, but I no longer believe that. I think it depends most on the ws does work that is aligned with strengthening as individuals and having the strength to rebuild the connection, the truthfulness and earnestness of the ws, and eventually the ability of the bs to accept this new paradigm based on seeing they have a great chance of having an exceptional spouse. But that last part can only come from the consistency of the bs.

I do however, think having a lousy marriage prior to the affair works against the reconciliation in many ways. It’s harder for the two people to picture what it could be, and more contempt and resentment pent up. Where a great marriage before is more of a neutral gain towards reconciliation. I do not know the state of your marriage before you cheated, but if that is a factor, you may want to add that to the list of things you will have to overcome.

You write of acting in ways that are true to your values and talking with empathy.

You're not getting the response you want. Remember: you can change only yourself. You can't change her.

What are you willing to change about your communications?

I didn't find 7 Principles to help our R, except for one piece of info. IMO, you need help getting through a crisis, an 7 Principles doesn't aim to do that. Maybe NOT "Just Friends"?

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:27 PM, Thursday, October 10th]

Dude, she doesn’t want to yell at you and talk down to you and call you names. She wants to love you. And sometimes she is sad and heartbroken about the things she has said. But she is working from her reptile brain quite a bit of the time now, especially if you are present. Remember that reptile brain of yours that let you have an affair, that justified all of it to you? Yeah, she is not working with her grown up brain right now. She is fighting for her life against someone that actively tried to destroy her soul. The person she is supposed to go to, to partner with, to rely on, is the most dangerous person in the world to her. It is a hard spot to be in. Give her some grace.