SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

...it appears to me that pain is causing bias here.

Of course it is. Absolutely. I cannot imagine how it couldn't. And you clearly understand that. What honestly baffles me is why you seem to take it so personally and viscerally react to it.

I have a high need to be understood. I am very conscious of all the meta happenings, structures, and purposes in conversation. I am constantly looking for intent, motive, fairness, the different sides of things... who exactly is saying what, how they're saying it, body language (if visible), what's the connotation of each word they're choosing and why they might have chosen that one over another, what the larger and more specific contexts are, how the previous parts of the conversation factor in, whether I agree or not based on a variety of arguments and counter-arguments I tend to automatically generate, how I would respond in their place, how I instinctively want to respond, various generated arguments for and against my own responses, the tone I want to convey, the words I want to choose, their synonyms, and different connotations, different ways what I say could be taken and how to mitigate misunderstandings, how other people observing are perceiving and reacting to the what was communicated...And then I'm looking to see if I am understood, what got lost in translation or perceived differently than intended, how I could have communicated it better next time, whether that interpretation is reasonable, odd, or unfair, and whether the misunderstanding occurred with intent or not based on the other person's potential motives, and how I could shed light on the inner working of the conversation if I suspect maliciousness or anterior motives. Probably some other stuff that I forgot to mention.

So basically I'm hyper analytical about every minute interaction as a means of 1) trying to counter my AuDHD and socially function the way that is expected and most in line with my goals, 2) trying to gather as much data from the interaction as possible, and 3) trying to protect myself from manipulation.

Capricorn brain goes brrrr

I felt like I did really good this time with not getting too upset. I was, I think, pretty annoyed and even quite disgusted at some points, but I think I held it together, no? I did write up several other detailed responses to certain posts expounding on the micro-politics and conversational "power plays" I was seeing, and just decided they weren't really necessary or advantageous to me, so they didn't get posted. That feels big for me! I get self-back-pats.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 2:53 AM, Monday, May 18th]

Capricorn brain goes brrrr

So does the A-10.

What you described above seems absolutely exhausting. I can't imagine.

I felt like I did really good this time with not getting too upset.

All things considered, it's certainly an improvement. I've never heard anyone describe a thought process like yours, although I'd imagine a few people I've known throughout my life might have, if given the opportunity.

I have a high need to be understood.

I'm curious. Do you also have an equally powerful need to understand?

I'm sort of the opposite in this regard. I try to be understood, of course. What I'm more prone to is trying to understand.

[This message edited by Unhinged at 3:29 AM, Monday, May 18th]

Oh of course. If I don't understand something, it'll drive me nuts until I do. Like, how am I supposed to make future decisions with maximal ROI and minimal risks if I'm missing data? I need all the microscopic holes in my schemas to be filled in.

It does get a little tiring sometimes to think this way, especially if I come to a crossroads on a decision and the risks seem really with big any direction I could choose, or if I think each side of an argument has nearly equal validity and I have to choose between them... I know one person who's incredibly unpredictable from moment to moment on down to like, the most inconsequential behaviors, and I can't stand him. People are supposed to follow certain patterns, you know? Not perfect patterns, but generally. Patternlessness is disturbing.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 3:46 AM, Monday, May 18th]

"Capricorn brain goes brrrr"

How interesting! We had another recent poster who had an almost pathological need to be affirmed in the comments who mentioned she was a Capricorn. Her name was Ghostie and she claimed she was going to get this whole forum removed from the internet because of some comments that contradicted her.

There is not a lot of astrological talk here, so it is amazing we get two Capricorns in a one month span!

Every detail about myself that I have allowed you to know was carefully evaluated prior to release. Just so you know.

The Body Keeps the Score:
Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma

By Bessel van der Kolk M.D.

I read this book a few years ago. It was very helpful and enlightening. I highly recommend it.

When I first joined SI, veterans often wrote something along the lines of: "take what works for you and leave the rest." At first I kind of bristled at the idea, believing that everyone's thoughts and opinions had some value. What I've come to realize since is that this isn't always true. Often enough, SI can be such of mess of raw, powerful emotions and triggers that it becomes crucial to filter out the "noise." That's not always easy to do, of course. I think being mindful of this might be of great benefit to you while you're here.

As for your husband's recent behavior, it seems like he knows exactly how to push your buttons to elicit certain responses. I don't know him, of course. I only have what you've written about him. I suspect that it's probably more subconscious than a deliberate effort to manipulate or be abusive and comes from a place of deep pain, fear and confusion. I could be wrong. Please understand that I'm not trying to minimize or dismiss your own pain, fear and confusion. I'm only trying to offer a different perspective based upon my own experience. I didn't choose my username name to be clever or funny or whatever. I honestly was unhinged. I was a total fucking wreck of a human being for... well, a few years.

People instinctively and subconsciously develop relationship dynamics with everyone in our lives (friends, family, neighbors, coworkers and bosses, etc., all uniquely). Stepping back, examining and changing those dynamics is extremely difficult but oh so worth the effort. And that always starts with one's self. And while we can't force others to do this for themselves, by doing it for ourselves, we can make it apparent that SSDD (same shit, different day) isn't going to work anymore.

Some food for thought, Morbs.

That's been on my reading list for a while. I'll be on an airplane tomorrow, so I think it'd be a good time to knock that book out.

I've also been told "take what works for you and leave the rest" multiple times. It's hard for me to leave responses from people who indicate they didn't understand what I was saying or what's happening for me, because I feel like often times people will read others' responses and be influenced by their misunderstanding, if that makes sense.

Like-- and this is a vast oversimplification and a fictional example-- if I made a post about my husband needing me to say, walk the dogs while he's away, and that I'm struggling to do it because I sprained my ankle and it's among the things causing conflict in my marriage,

and someone comes along early in the conversation and says something like, "I've sprained my ankle before, and still cared for my cats just fine. I think that you're making excuses because you're harboring resentfulness towards him and don't want to take on the responsibility."

That comment a) misses that I said I have dogs, not cats, and b) that dogs require different care than cats, like being walked, and c) I didn't say I'm struggling to 'care for' them; I said I'm struggling to walk them because I am physically injured.

But others who come along may read that early comment and be influenced by it. They may come to think that I have cats, not dogs, and be primed to interpret everything I say after that as excuse making, especially if they know I'm a WS and hold the bias that all WS attempt to avoid accountability and their part in their relationship dynamics, and then I become the "bad guy" in the scenario. Then they might say things like, "I agree with person A. There's no reason why you can't pour food in a bowl and scoop litter even with a bum ankle. Your husband is away and he needs you to step up. Have you considered how he might be feeling in this situation? Have some empathy. You might have less conflict if you own up to your part in it."

And then I go, "What? That's not what I said; you must have misunderstood. Let me try explaining again. My husband wants me to walk the dogs, not scoop litter. I'm feeding them just fine. Part of our conflict is that I don't feel like he's demonstrating empathy for my injury, or grasping that I physically can't do it, not that I don't want to or that I'm lazy.."

But it's too late, because now multiple people have agreed that I'm just avoiding responsibility for the pets and my role in the conflict, and some of them will probably even call me "defensive" for trying to correct the misunderstanding.

And then I'll be like, "No. I'm not being defensive, and I'm not avoiding accountability. I said I have dogs and a sprained ankle from the beginning, and I physically cannot do what my husband is asking me to do. I understand that our dogs need to be cared for and how he might be feeling, and I want him to feel better so that he can work effectively while he's away. I offered to hire a dog walker, but he wanted me to do it, not spend money to have someone else do it, because he doesn't understand that I can't. That's why I'm saying he's the one not having empathy for me..."

But they'll just double down, instead of acknowledging the misunderstanding and adjusting their response, again, because of the bias, even if you point it out, and then the recap of the entire conversation gets so long and convoluted that they can just denounce you as "crazy" or "exhausting" and they have a convenient out without any resolution. They might even say things like, "This is exhausting; none of that is going on. Everyone here is responding to what you're telling them. They're in agreement and they're kindly trying to help you. You would do well to listen to them. I'm not going to argue with you about it anymore though. Good luck to you."

And then sometimes, that reputation follows you to other posts: now you're not only a person who avoids accountability and lacks empathy, but you're also crazy and exhausting, and that's the preconceived notion that people have of you when they respond going forward.

You can see how that's crazy-making, right?

It makes me feel better to at least point out the dynamics happening and attempt to keep the conversation on track. A part of me hopes that the explanation of them reaches some of the respondents, and maybe they'll self reflect and not do that to other people in their own lives. But most of me knows it's unlikely. I think that it's a useful exercise in exposure therapy either way, and that I'm getting better with not triggering so hard.

I do think my husband is hurting and struggling to self-regulate, whether it's from the infidelity or his own childhood trauma or both or something more. I don't think he's doing this to me on purpose, and that's congruent with him denying it and taking offense when I bring the tactics up. If I felt sure he was doing it intentionally, then I would have a much harder time staying and forgiving him... But still, there's a deep need to protect myself from that kind of abuse, and a little voice whispering, "But what if it is intentional? Are we safe?" And so I have to collect evidence and evaluate the reality of the situation, just in case, at the same time that I'm navigating his emotions.

You can see how that's crazy-making, right?

No, not really. I think it's a waste of my time and energy. I've no illusions that I can change people. I can express my own perspectives, thoughts and beliefs, opinions, and hope it might register. Beyond that, I honestly don't give a shit. But that's just me. Everyone's different in their own ways.

I do think my husband is hurting and struggling to self-regulate, whether it's from the infidelity or his own childhood trauma or both or something more.

It's both and probably something more or new. Seems to me that deep trauma triggers other traumas. Certainly did for me. It's how the brain works.

Struggling to self-regulate? Yep! I'd say that's a good possibility. BTDT. Seems common enough to me.

This is why being mindful is so important. Not saying you should be walking on egg shells. Just remember that for him being rational is difficult when his amygdala is flipping out.

You're in charge of your emotions, to some degree. While doing your best to stay mindful, you can choose how you react.

...there's a deep need to protect myself from that kind of abuse, and a little voice whispering, "But what if it is intentional? Are we safe?"

I know. You've shared where that comes from and I've "seen" how it affects you. One of my biggest hopes for you is that some day you can slay that demon so it no longer governs your life the way it seems to do.

In the meantime, work on trying to change your end of the dynamics with him and, I think, you'll start to see a way forward to better communication, a stronger bond, and greater peace.

In the meantime, work on trying to change your end of the dynamics with him and, I think, you'll start to see a way forward to better communication, a stronger bond, and greater peace.

I'm trying to figure out what that looks like in practice.

In the recorded conversation, I see some of my own responses to the manipulation tactics that appeared to be somewhat effective in keeping the conversation on track, without pointing out the tactic to him. Things like "I wasn't finished," in response to him interrupting me mid-sentence, and then continuing on with what I was saying (though it's hella frustrating with ADHD to have your thoughts scattered like that and try to remember and resume where you left off... That's kind of the root of the tactic, is that it's disruptive, distracting, and undermines your ability to express yourself clearly), saying "I want to circle back to [insert prior topic we didn't finish discussing], directly asking him to explain his dissent paired with reminding him that I care about his opinion on the matter and don't want him to feel steamrolled, anchoring parts of the conversation to one another, that way if he remembers it incorrectly or with a negative skew/absolution, it's easy to mention an anchor and draw him back to what was actually said (this is a method I use when I'm struggling to recall a conversation myself. I'll ask the other person what we were talking about before or after, if there were any particularly memorable phrases used, where we were and what we were physically doing during the conversation, the larger context, etc., and that helps jog my memory many times.)

I think if I can create for myself a sort of study guide, with a table of the manipulation tactics and how to mitigate their effects on the conversation without directly pointing it out to him in a way that causes more defensiveness, and I memorize it and get good at putting those responses in practice when necessary, that could help... I still feel like I'm walking on eggshells and preemptively managing his feelings by doing that, but I can't think of any other solutions to utilize while I wait for him to work on his own issues. Maybe if I show him, subconsciously, that the tactics aren't going to work, he'll give up on trying them? Or if this just makes him angrier, or he evolves counters to the counter-tactics, that will be evidence that he's doing it on purpose.

Im hearing, out of the gate, that remorse is waning. Then, Im seeing justification;

You pronounce that He is abusive by way of manipulation.

Ok. Please specify what and how he is doing this.

You admit that through infidelity and its concealment and defense, you have abused him, correct? Was your manipulation of him and abuse of him intentional to be able to continue having both things?

Im sure you saw that you had spent alot of time creating justifications to support that decision. You likely gaslit yourself as much as you did him in the construction of those self justifying mechanisms. I think you might be doing that again, but might not be able to see it. I think part of you knows, because you are being very non specific about the underlying actual interactions going on. I think you are leaving out the specifics because you know how they will land with the body of help you are seeking here.

Prove me wrong. What are the coping mechanisms you are indulging in that trigger your husband? You mentioned staying in a hotel by yourself, and resenting him needing checkins and reassurance.
Are these manipulations you see in him reactive to infidelity adjacent behaviors you feel entitled to continue?

I dont think you see that your intention of creating a list of ways behaviours you are seeing from him is manipulative, and how to definitively respond to each so you can get him to stop or decide if his abusive manipulation is intentional, is you yourself gameplanning intentional manipulation of him to achieve a win. He might even feel abused, because of the context.

You seem to really fear him doing things you did to him, and find being manipulated abhorrent and unacceptable. But the short half life of remorse for having done those things to him and entitlement about controlling how he is reacting to it is concerning.

Im not sure you have what it takes to set your ego down and grow out of this, but I hope you do.