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I am having the unfortunate dichotomy of experiencing a disdain for my wayward for what she did and put the family through while at the same time feeling empathy for her fuckedupedness that led her down the path she took.

She walks on eggshells regularly in fear that she has done something to anger me. That I may experience a trigger. That I may just up and leave. She admittedly lives in a constant fear that I may wake up one morning and say I can’t do this anymore. And she is right, because I have given it deep consideration many a night.

She speaks to her friend who is in the throes of an affair, and tells her how bad off she is, and how not worth it what she is doing is, and how much damage she is causing, and having it all fall on deaf ears.
There is a certain level of disgust she feels with her friend. But I know it is also with herself because her friend is a mirror to her during her A. She knows that at that time, she would not have listened to anyone either.

Then there are the times that we may meet someone new, a business associate, client or coworker. They often speak on how beautiful she is and how she is such a great wife. I see those uncomfortable smiles, I feel her shame as she knows that I no longer see her that way, and she feels she is not those things. The shame is palpable.

These are some of the consequences of her actions.
She invalidated the safety in her own marriage through her own actions. Yet I know that it is no way for a person to live.
Constantly in fear, constantly in stress. Scared.

I feel empathy even though I am not at all an empathic person. That empathy is mixed into an emotional gumbo of anger, loathing, love, sorrow, compassion, revulsion. I despise her for putting us here, I despise myself for no longer despising her.

I feel guilty for not being more receptive to everything she has/is trying to do to be a better person and wife…everything she is doing to make amends.

I no longer call her names…and I am well past that stage. Yet I still think to myself how stupid she was. How she destroyed her marriage for the compliments and attention of some loser who cared nothing for her other than what he could use her for. How she damaged the life we built for something so fleeting.

Yet I am wondering why I don’t hate her…i wonder why I truly didn’t leave when I should’ve…i wonder would I be better off with someone else new without the baggage we now carry.

I look at her and try to see her humanity, feel the empathy and move on, but what I feel is a lot of nothingness.

Any words of wisdom would be appreciated

As my name would suggest, I like Marvel movies. Iron Man 3 reference incoming, hope it’s not too obscure.

In that movie, characters are injected with an internal fire. To some it becomes a super power, to others it explodes. For some, showing that grace and empathy to their wayward is part of the journey to a new good relationship. For others, it ends up in prolonged, indefinite misery. You showing grace, giving empathy is part of you doing what you can toward R. But it’s no guarantee of success and if it all ends up blowing up, you shouldn’t ignore it and you aren’t to blame.

You are ahead of me I think TrayDee. I am feeling these things too. WS is on eggshells. I think of leaving constantly.

I also feel "some" empathy but more because if we are to get through this, she has to get through this.

She walks on eggshells regularly in fear that she has done something to anger me. That I may experience a trigger. That I may just up and leave. She admittedly lives in a constant fear that I may wake up one morning and say I can’t do this anymore. And she is right, because I have given it deep consideration many a night.

This is where we're at right now, almost 7 months post d day. I completely empathize with your position. I fell into a pretty rough half day long spiral just the other day, and she was completely miserable and apologetic the whole time, but we got through it.

Your story is really close to mine. Long marriage (27 years), we disconnected, 3 trysts with a co worker involving hotel rooms, ego kibbles, used her, made her feel desirable, deep remorse, walking on eggshells, fear of triggers and me leaving, etc. Just... damn. I never really went through a name calling phase, tho I did point out a couple of times "so he basically treated you like a common whore, and you went along with it..." That really hit her hard.

It's a really tough situation, but we are working through it. She's completely changed. She's been breaking her back to bend over and make amends. She doesn't shut down discussions when I get triggered, she answers my questions when I ask them, even if it's the hundredth time I've asked it. I believe she's changed. I believe she's truly remorseful. I believe I still am, and always have been, her number 1. I still love her, and I know she loves me.

I still struggle with ruminating and mind movies. I go through a lot of the same feelings you're going through, but I do still love her. I believe she would never do anything like this again. I know she feels horrible about her choices and actions, and would give anything for a do-over so she could have made different choices and never let it happen in the first place. All that said, I think we're going to make it. I've pretty much mostly forgiven her, but certainly not forgotten it. I'm still hurting, but she's hyper sensitive to it, and I'm cutting her some slack because there were also some extenuating circumstances given that she's epileptic, has some cognitive blindspots from a head injury when she was a baby, and had just been put on a new anti seizure med that is infamous for inducing rage and personality changes.

Do you love her? Are you convinced that she's changed or at least will never, ever do something like this again? Right now I focus on where we're at currently. Which, when I'm not triggered or spiraling, is far better than we ever have been. Communication has completely opened up, intimacy and affection has gone into overdrive, and we're much, much closer now. We're no longer disconnected. So basically, minus the infidelity, we have the marriage we always should have. She really is my best friend, and I'm hers. I've decided that I want to keep what we have now, so I'm giving her a lot of grace, and yes, I do empathize with her. I know she's disgusted with herself and absolutely hates what she's done to our marriage. She's hurting, too, and she's terrified I'm going to wake up one day and just leave. So I've been reassuring her, as she continues to reassure me.

I think we have something worth salvaging. I think a lot about where we're at now, and try not to let thinking about the past overshadow that. Her words and actions have gone a long way toward my healing, and I think we still have something worth salvaging. The old marriage is dead. Gone. Kaput. She murdered it, but I think in a lot of ways that might just be a good thing. Right now I'm focused on the present and future, and trying not to live in the past.

Tray, I could have written a very similar post many years ago. I probably did, just can’t remember.

At some point in time, I did start to feel empathy for my wife (now ex). It took a while. It took a lot of reading here, particularly in the W forum before I learned a simple truth about infidelity. Today I write this so often my "smart" phone has it memorized.

I believe that infidelity is self-destructive. We, the betrayed, are collateral damage.

That damage, of course, is so overwhelming its incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to see past our own pain.

It's a mixed bag, of course, as you've stated, because it almost seems... hypocritical, inherently contradictory, to have empathy for some who hurt us so profoundly.

It may take some more time and reflection to iron out this dichotomy.

Infidelity is crazy-making shit.

I have spoken to you many times on this site. And this struggle you feel is always palpable to me.

This is going to seem sort of backwards, but this is what I think:

I think that your wife needs to be willing to lose the marriage to save it. Her walking on eggshells is a constant reminder for you. You can be remorseful and still grow into a stronger version of yourself.

One example- you talked once about your disdain for how she deals with her mother. She will sort of hide things from her. This is weak to you and reminds you of her double dealings.

I feel like your wife needs to take her power back. It’s hard to fall in love with someone who is seemingly just accommodating you. To fight for her marriage I think she is going to have to show you she isn’t going to be avoidant. All this conflict avoiding is not making you feel safe.

Now, you may just be completely not able to get vulnerable with her again, but has she become someone you can be that with?

I think often reconciliation requires being able to see the person in front of you has grown from the person who put a knife in your back.

Now, could this still be a deal breaker for you? Yes. But you remind me a bit of waited too long. I think he eventually had to hold in his anger because of how his wife was so afraid to not be anything but completely accommodating. Would he have divorced if she wasn’t so willing to take his scraps? There is a big possibility it would still be yes. But we do not want to be married to someone who cowers, we want someone who when they fuxk up they stand tall and own it and grow from it.

I have no doubt in reading you for so long she is remorseful and wants this marriage with you to work again. I personally think she is going about it the wrong way. She should be proactive and not reactive and I believe that’s what I hear from you in a lot of your posts. You believe she is sorry, you may even believe she won’t do it again. I think those are reasonable beliefs from what you describe of her. But you don’t see the change in her. She needs to get braver and also say this is no way for her to live. I think then she could actually redeem a little respect from you if she did, whether or not you could begin to fall in love with her again is somewhat of an unknown.

She needs to show she loves herself, respects herself. It will change her behavior from the ground up. That doesn’t mean she should not show remorse or be humble. But this version of her where she is just sort of chasing you is not going to turn the dynamic of your relationship.

And in the end at some point you will have to decide to accept that this happened and act in your best interest, but it’s hard to get there if she is falling all over herself all the time. It just reminds you of her weakness and you need her to be more of a rock.

And in the end this may be something you can’t accept and you will have to leave the marriage. But I have some idea that isn’t the whole issue yet.

She needs to deal with her shame and if she can see herself in a new light you may be able to as well.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:00 PM, Wednesday, November 5th]

Have you talked with her about the eggshells? If not, I think talking is a good idea. I know I wanted my W to be real. I hated it when she wasn't/isn't.

I believe empathy for the WS is entirely appropriate. I also believe it's separate from the stay/go decision.

The disdain, otoh, is a very real problem. My reco is to stay with yourself a while. I suspect that going through cycles of disdain and desire means you're still undecided. If you stop cycling, you've got a direction - disdain means go, desire means stay. (I went through that cycle, too; for me, the cycling stopped on desire.)

My ExWW became mired in this Toxic Shame, then everything became about her. I found myself supporting and reassuring her more than her, me. She became the victim-of her own making. She resided in her pity pot, and I in mine, and this drew us further apart.

She lived in constant fear that I would just up and leave, that things would never be special again, that I would never get over it, never look at her the same again, never respect her, never love her the same again, the damage just too profound, and maybe she was right, maybe.

I found myself constantly reassuring HER, and this began to make me resentful. Like OP, I too felt empathy for my WS’s pathetic state of brokenness and her position. It was a confusing-conflicting mix of emotions, empathy vs. disgust.

I think successfully reconciling Waywards boldly and selflessly throw themselves into R regardless of their odds of success. They do it for even the slightest chance at saving the marriage, remaining with their BS. They transcend their own fears and doubts while focusing on their BS. This act of unconditional love-effort, no matter the risks, no matter the odds, no matter the sacrifice is, I think, a chief ingredient in the recipe for a successful R.

But I will never know as my marriage never made it beyond this point.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 3:34 PM, Wednesday, November 5th]

I think this may be one of the cases where it might do you and your WS some good if she started visiting the wayward forum here. Most of the time it’s not advised, but I think where the two of you are now it might help. Think on that a bit.

I would like to thank everyone for their responses, I have spent the day mulling them over and thinking about each one….it has given me a lot to consider and several different perspectives to process.

RealityBlows

She lived in constant fear that I would just up and leave, that things would never be special again, that I would never get over it, never look at her the same again, never respect her, never love her the same again, the damage just too profound, and maybe she was right, maybe.

I found myself constantly reassuring HER, and this began to make me resentful. Like OP, I too felt empathy for my WS’s pathetic state of brokenness and her position. It was a confusing-conflicting mix of emotions, empathy vs. disgust.

I have a lot of this going on. It pisses me off that I have to reassure her after what she did, but I know that it is necessary. I try to do it in the most truthful way that I can but I won’t lie to her. I told her on more than one occasion that it is possible that I never get over it, never have the same view of her or the same respect for her. Maybe it will come in a new form, maybe there will be a new type of respect as we head toward being empty nesters and the seasons of life change, but I doubt it could ever be "the same"

Sisoon

Have you talked with her about the eggshells? If not, I think talking is a good idea. I know I wanted my W to be real. I hated it when she wasn't/isn't.

I have had that talk and it turned into another session of her shrinking and me having to comfort her. I guess this is where my disdain comes from…that I wasn’t the one that blew up the marriage but I have to help fix it.
I once likened it to her throwing a stick of dynamite into the living room because we had a leaky faucet and a broken stove.
As in a lot of affairs, she rewrote the marriage. Then after counseling she realized she catastrophized our marriage to justify her behaviors. However during that short tine frame, a month or 2 after Dday, I heard her say things that still sting that were completely off base. I cant get those out of my head so when they come up, she just folds. She says she never meant them and she was not thinking straight when she said them, but they are there nonetheless.

Hikingout.
You as usual have touched on quite a few points that I have to examine….

I feel like your wife needs to take her power back. It’s hard to fall in love with someone who is seemingly just accommodating you. To fight for her marriage I think she is going to have to show you she isn’t going to be avoidant. All this conflict avoiding is not making you feel safe.

Her conflict avoidance has given me the ick in a subconscious way. The firs couple of decades we were together, she was not like that, or if she was it was so small that I didn’t see it. It began to manifest with our children for couple of years. She would give in to anything to make them not be mad, even when she knew it was not best. She has started to come out of that a little in the last year but it does make me feel some kind of way

Now, you may just be completely not able to get vulnerable with her again, but has she become someone you can be that with?

I think often reconciliation requires being able to see the person in front of you has grown from the person who put a knife in your back.

For me it is the opposite, I feel like I have always been vulnerable to a point, but now I am more so than ever, because I simply do not give a crap. It is strangely freeing to be able to say what I need to after infidelity. I feel like what’s the worst that can happen….it already has. I have nothing left to lose. However I know I would be wrong to NOT acknowledge the ways that she has grown in the last few years. Just generally trying to be mindful of herself, and work on her traumas and trying to heal them instead of just burying everything. I feel after all we have been through together, I do owe her that.

Now, could this still be a deal breaker for you? Yes. But you remind me a bit of waited too long. I think he eventually had to hold in his anger because of how his wife was so afraid to not be anything but completely accommodating. Would he have divorced if she wasn’t so willing to take his scraps? There is a big possibility it would still be yes. But we do not want to be married to someone who cowers, we want someone who when they fuxk up they stand tall and own it and grow from it.

You are correct. I have studied Waitedwaytoolong and his post history deeply. I felt a lot of the same things he described and could relate immensely. While there are always differences in the circumstances between any two situations I feel akin to him.
However I also have learned from him in that he once said, he was so angry with himself that he could help himself from being so cold and harsh with his wife. It helped me get to the point where I am now. As with him, my wife helped us build a great life and is well worthy of praise for the job she has done. Her A aside, the family, the business, none of it is successful without her efforts. Couple that with the fact that I am not the "hard charging" worker I once was I can lighten up and see things in a more empathic light.
Or maybe it is just the POLF.

Yet I am wondering why I don’t hate her…i wonder why I truly didn’t leave when I should’ve…i wonder would I be better off with someone else new without the baggage we now carry.

I could offer many theoretical answers to these questions, but I'm not sure how helpful they would be. Reasons for staying can range from those that are deeply profound (like true love or a deep desire to maintain a shared history) to those that are simply ignoble (like comfort or fear).

As for the question of whether you could be better off: of course. In my experience, I see far more people regret staying than leaving, but that is an impossible statistic to scientifically quantify. I also know of people who left and never moved on, or who left and were burned again. Nothing is a guaranteed outcome.

I look at her and try to see her humanity, feel the empathy and move on, but what I feel is a lot of nothingnes

Empathy is often described as a muscle, something that can be developed. The question you have to ask yourself is: Do you truly want to empathize with your betrayer? Is the lack of that desire what's holding back this development?

However I also have learned from him in that he once said, he was so angry with himself that he could help himself from being so cold and harsh with his wife. It helped me get to the point where I am now. As with him, my wife helped us build a great life and is well worthy of praise for the job she has done. Her A aside, the family, the business, none of it is successful without her efforts. Couple that with the fact that I am not the "hard charging" worker I once was I can lighten up and see things in a more empathic light.

Given the complexity of the situation you're describing, it would be easy for me, as someone deeply against reconciliation, to respond with a purely negative view. However, I believe there's a significant difference between those who have a genuine chance at R and those who simply don't. It is, of course, impossible for me to tell which camp you will ultimately land in.

My feelings align with those of "Waited Too Long"—I genuinely admire him, but I honestly don't think he could ever fully move past the betrayal. I feel the same: I don't think I could, nor would I want to. For him, even the memories and appreciation of their great life prior to the affair weren't enough. It didn't change how he saw her today; it couldn't dispel the disgust.

Broadly, I think we fall into three categories of people when facing betrayal:

Type 1: Incapable of R: People who could not move past the betrayal, regardless of whether they wanted to.

Type 2: Capable but Unwilling: People who could reconcile, but choose not to for moral or principled reasons.

Type 3: Capable and Willing: People who are capable of successful R.

For context, if my current fiancé were to cheat on me, I feel that all the amazing times, memories, and the life we've built together would be completely erased. That's how fundamentally betrayal shifts my perspective. This exact switch happened with the ex-partner who led me here. A light switched off. I could see nothing but hate and, more predominantly, disgust. I don't think I could have had a physical relationship with her post-discovery for all the gold in Fort Knox. You don't appear to have this same switch, which is a good thing. It gives you options.

It's an innate character thing, I think. I've cut off friends, and even family members, over what I deem to be unforgivable choices. The fact that you, however, have the ability to still see the beautiful history you share is a testament to the possibility that your path toward R could be successful.

So I guess dig deeper. Look within. If you want to develop empathy to aid in R, that is entirely possible.

It makes sense-

You having to comfort her.

Her not being authentic and operating from a place of fear.

I totally understand where she is because I did go through this same phase. In many ways my husband’s cheating sort of made me less afraid. I stopped worrying about losing the marriage for obvious reasons and this was a step forward -But it wasn’t the cure (nor would I advise it as a solution) I don’t want to portray that aspect of our story to be good in any way. The damage of course was far far greater than any benefit. I think I would have reached the point I am regardless, it might have just taken more time.

When you know your spouse is capable of cheating, as you know it changes things in a deep way. I do not think it’s hypocritical for me to say that, I realize that I inflicted the same. It just doesn’t remove the impact of the image that I have of him. So definitely am not recommending, I am just sharing how this unfolded for me.

But after that time I started to realize the ways shame was controlling me. And it ran so deep. It does take the step of dealing with past trauma and where we develop some of the coping mechanisms and attitudes towards ourselves, so if she has done that it’s a great start.

I always had the impression that your wife is a good candidate for reconciliation (that doesn’t mean you have to reconcile though). It may be a good time to try marriage counseling or for her to go back to IC. Her being a good candidate only means I think she will do whatever is asked or that she will try and do her part in all of it.

Shame is not always an emotion. Shame for some of us is a belief to our core that we are bad, that we are undeserving, etc. and it has been our mode of operation for most of our lives.

Her shame takes up a lot of the space you need to be able to feel your feelings without the extra guilt for feeling those things. I think you need to put it to her that way.

I can understand your torment. You can see she is remorseful, but you need her to be stronger in her sense of self. I will say that it took me a long time to get there so I have empathy for her too. But she may need some professional help or more education on it in order to get her over this hump. A book that at least illuminates this for me (though putting it into practice still took time and effort) is "Rising Strong" by Brene Brown. I will also say that I read it first individually but eventually I had my husband play the audio book when we were driving and we would discuss it as we finished parts of it and it helped create a mutual understanding of some of the concepts she is talking about. Anywhere you can build a mutual understanding it gives a better basis for communication and understanding.

Lastly, I know you feel obligation, but in reality you are not obligated. You may really feel that’s why you need to stay, but there is nothing wrong with walking away. I know you say you have nothing to lose, but if you work to release the idea you are doing it for her or because it’s owed it really may help you to understand you may very well be there for you and because YOU want it. If that’s what you discover, you might feel invested again.

Putting it even more bluntly- I don’t want my husband to be here because he is obligated, because it’s easier. I want him with me because he wants ti be there and he wants us to grow together. Now that is not judgment. He certainly went through the stages you are in and worse, but in the end it would not have been sustainable. I made horrific decisions but in the end I deserve to love and be loved. The consequences of my actions will always be imprinted but I do not feel it should be a life sentence to have him stay out of obligation- that doesn’t serve either of us very well.

There is a shame sometimes in staying and your narrative of your whys maybe about avoiding those feelings of shame. It’s easier to say it’s owed or you feel an obligation. And maybe that is what is keeping you but if it is that’s not a good reason to stay. I can hear it in your post though, for what that’s worth. If you are going to get past this it’s going to come with owning you are staying because you want to and releasing any shame or pride that is causing the cognitive dissonance. I will say that may not be possible if your wife is making you feel sorry for her (even if that is unintentional on her side)

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:51 PM, Thursday, November 6th]

DRSOOLERS

My feelings align with those of "Waited Too Long"—I genuinely admire him, but I honestly don't think he could ever fully move past the betrayal. I feel the same: I don't think I could, nor would I want to. For him, even the memories and appreciation of their great life prior to the affair weren't enough. It didn't change how he saw her today; it couldn't dispel the disgust.

Broadly, I think we fall into three categories of people when facing betrayal:

Type 1: Incapable of R: People who could not move past the betrayal, regardless of whether they wanted to.

Type 2: Capable but Unwilling: People who could reconcile, but choose not to for moral or principled reasons.

Type 3: Capable and Willing: People who are capable of successful R.

I wanted to second my admiration for WWTL. It takes a strong person to try to R and realize that at a point you can't and pull the plug.

He made me realize that BS have a why to explore as well.

We tend to focus on whether the WS is a good candidate for R and if they are doing the work, but often overlook if the BS is a good candidate for R. Internal makeup, and circumstances of the A can be large factors in determining if the BS is a good candidate for R. I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that if this had happened 25 years ago, before the kids and all, I would have been out the door faster than a gazelle escaping a lion.

Which brings me to this point by Hikingout,

Lastly, I know you feel obligation, but in reality you are not obligated. You may really feel that’s why you need to stay, but there is nothing wrong with walking away. I know you say you have nothing to lose, but if you work to release the idea you are doing it for her or because it’s owed it really may help you to understand you may very well be there for you and because YOU want it. If that’s what you discover, you might feel invested again.

There is a shame sometimes in staying and your narrative of your whys maybe about avoiding those feelings of shame. It’s easier to say it’s owed or you feel an obligation. And maybe that is what is keeping you but if it is that’s not a good reason to stay. I can hear it in your post though, for what that’s worth. If you are going to get past this it’s going to come with owning you are staying because you want to and releasing any shame or pride that is causing the cognitive dissonance. I will say that may not be possible if your wife is making you feel sorry for her (even if that is unintentional on her side)

In exploring my own "why" as a BS, I did find a sense of obligation. But not necessarily toward her.

I am a believer that God can fix anything. I have lived my life by it. I am an ex street runner who escaped that game and life simply by the grace of God. All my cohorts are dead or in jail, yet here I am.

My favorite scripture is Romans 8:28

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

It never said all things ARE good, but all things "work together" for good. So my first obligation is to the God I believe brought me out of my past life, to see what he makes of this mess.

My 2nd obligation is to my daughters. The youngest has had mental health issues for a few years now, pre dating the infidelity, but I am sure it exacerbated those. She has had multiple breakdowns and been admitted to an inpatient facility on one occasion. I knew that I could not break her stability in life and expect good results so that was a major part of my decision stay.

It just goes to show how far reaching the effects of infidelity span. All involved and in close proximity to the situation are effected. The fall out is akin to Chernobyl.

[This message edited by TrayDee at 3:34 PM, Thursday, November 6th]

It just goes to show how far reaching the effects of infidelity span. All involved and in close proximity to the situation are effected. The fall out is akin to Chernobyl.

This is so true. I have pointed out to my husband multiple times that I have had to deeply consider our children's needs as a separation would affect them greatly and if only he had considered their needs he wouldn't have cheated!

I think if you're not happy in reconciliation there does come a point where you have to admit that. Like the oxygen mask analogy...you have to look after yourself in order to be able to look after others. I am only 11 months into reconciliation but I reserve the right to leave the marriage of I want to in the future - I guess I've always had that option but it never entered my thoughts before DD.

Yet I am wondering why I don’t hate her…i wonder why I truly didn’t leave when I should’ve…i wonder would I be better off with someone else new without the baggage we now carry.

Perhaps you don't hate her because you know life requires accepting nuances.

Perhaps you didn't leave because you questioned whether it was the best course of action for you.

The baggage you know may, in fact, be less of a burden than the baggage another partner carries.

I have had that talk and it turned into another session of her shrinking and me having to comfort her.

I think hiking's point is CRITICAL - you do not have to comfort your WS.

You can empathize with your WS - that is, perceive the sitch as she does. You can sympathize with her - in the sense of being compassionate.

But neither empathy nor sympathy implies any obligation to comfort your WS. In fact, giving comfort may simply keep her where she is.

She feels shame? grief? fear? Those are her problems. Maybe you can help, but maybe the best thing you can do for her and for yourself and for your kids is to tell her to call her IC. My W needed help on an issue, and she wasn't accepting what her IC said, so she wanted me to help. I just told her to join SI, because I did not want to help her with that issue (though I've forgotten what the issue was).

I understand that a WS is likely to act in ways that will evoke support for not changing, especially if the same behaviors worked in the past. It's just part of the Drama Triangle.

IOW, the WS takes the Persecutor role by cheating, which victimizes the BS. When the BS finds out, the WS switches to Victim to try to force the BS to switch from Victim to Rescuer and thereby allow the WS to avoid the consequences.

Comfort from the BS keeps the WS from dealing with their own shit.

The way out of DT for the BS is to refuse to play. If comfort is a reflex, stop. If you don't want to comfort your WS, don't. If you want to comfort your WS, do it. But respond authentically, except that comforting a WS while they are actually feeling something is probably a bad idea. That is, if you're going to comfort your WS, do so after their feeling has passed.

*****

Conflict avoidance is death to R. To build a marriage that serves both partners, both partners need to make their voices heard so conflicts get to the surface. When you know there's a conflict, you can resolve it; When you don't know it exists, it stays a problem, and resentment can just build until it blows up.

You and your WS are 2 different people. You're bound to differ on some matters, large and small. I guess I think the power your W needs to take back is the power of being authentic.

Right now, Tray, your W may want to rebuild, but she's needs to change her approach. By comforting her, though, you're showing her she doesn't have to change. Next time, let her stew in her feelings. If a conversation goes ff track, end it, perhaps with a request to get back to the topic you started with. And, if you want to do or avoid something she wants to avoid or do, and she won't tell you what she wants, just do what you want.

IMO, you have to change what you're doing if you want your W to change.

Hi TrayDee,

Regular reader and infrequent (but usually desperate) poster here, but I resonate deeply with several of the things that are clawing at you...as they do me...so I am inspired to share some bits of my heart in relation to these things today.

I guess first, I'd offer that there is an additional category of BS I'd add to Dr. Soolers list...that I know I am a part of, and I suspeect you are too:

*Willing - but unable to (fully) reconcile.

You speak of WWTL, whose story I also value tremedously, whom I think also was in this category. It just took him a while to discover it.

But here's the thing. There's QUITE a spectrum that exists in this particualr category. Ranging (at least?) from BS's who know they will experience a significant level of lifelong dissonance for reconciling but, after weighing all things intensively, choose to accept that and do it anyway...to BS's like WWTL, who try willingly, but ultimately find that they can't and end R and the marriage. And the specific place BS's fall within this spectrum is pretty much determined by how much of that "fully" part they can let go of and live with.

This is me. I am on this spectrum in a place where I have done forensic levels of cost weighing and found my particular cost for reconciling. And it's not marginal. Some of the cost is in precious and priceless things. As has been mentioned upthread, I have not been able to see or look at my wife the same. Loss of respect. Loss of "special", and probably don't love her quite the same way I did before I learned she could do these things to me. There is continual pain. Thankfully not the shrieking, soul-in-flames pain that arrived with DDay(s) (and stayed way longer that I ever imagined). But more like a constant arthritic pain that sometimes flares up again to something more. There is the taint of pre-A history. And, for me, I think it changed my entire sexual identity. And these are just things, somewhat, off the top of my head. My point, again, there is cost...ONGOING cost...to reconcile. But...there is also cost to not. And that is multi-faceted as well. Of course the big ones are there...children...money. But there's so much more as well. Heart things. Love. History (even a tainted one). I have always adored who my wife is (outside of the insanity of her affairs of course). Future. Someone who truly knows me. True partnership. Now, grandchildren. Again, just off the top of my head (here for this post anyway).

I don't want to seem to reduce the enitre thing to a cold clincial cost vs. benefit analysis...but at some level, that's what it is. Just with precious heart things involved.

So, I guess I say all of that say:

I am willing to reconcile, but I know I am not able to fully do it. And I know I never will. I am fully aware of the cost of this. That there will be real, not insignificant, and ongoing pain and sense of loss. Weighed against the cost of not reconciling, I choose this. Knowingly. Willingly.

So...YAY! (truly...it's a Win...on MANY levels)

But also...UGH!...because the ongoing cost of winning is ever-present. And some days it is way harder to accept than others. When that "arthritis" flares up...damn.

And I just share this much (I didn't think this one thing would be this long and wordy!...and there's many other parts of your story I feel deeply with you but have already written a book here...classic WH) to maybe just say that figuring out your place on this spectrum is likely a significant source of the dissonace and pain you that's clawing on you now.

I know the inspiration of this post is the incongruity you feel about having empathy for your WW...which I totally get (my fWW came from severe alcoholic abuse) but I wonder if the bigger picture might be that, maybe not even being fully aware of it, your heart is doing this soul level, high(est?) stakes cost/benefit calculus in the backgound..and your CPU is maxing out. Because (it certainly seems like) you are willing to reconcile, but know/believe that you can't do that fully. And your heart is trying to figure out just how much less "fully" can it do?

My advice, for what it's worth, will be so anti-climactic here.

Keep at it. Keep running that process and I believe you will eventually find your spot, wherever that turns out to be, on that spectrum.

I will also add (before signing this off..I promise) that as a similar hearted man of faith, that (to me) redemption is one of the most powerful and beautiful things in existence. It fuels me on those "arthritic" days, and even some of the "normal" cost days...to make myself remember alllll that I am redeeming by choosing to live with this cost. I mean, my wife is truly remorseful (making this possible for me at all), and some would possibly accuse me of KISA issues or having a messiah/martyr complex here...but nah. Just a man who has truly and completely counted the cost and found redemption...worth it. Not a damn thing wrong or off or less-than for those who don't or can't. But if you need someone to tell you that it's a breathtakingly beautiful (if unglamorous) thing when it can be pulled off...

Peace,

WH

You can both feel compassion for your WW and decide that it is over. And, you deserve to feel alive in your relationship, Tray Dee.

This is a much more general comment, but what some call shame often looks an awful lot to me like ENTITLEMENT.

1. 'I need to stop feeling so horrible at myself for what I did'. Well, but what about the searing pain the BS is in, that he cannot seem to turn off? Are you willing to get down on the floor with him when he is flooding? What about when he is flooding and lashing out at you? What about HIS shame, both in feeling 'not enough' for you, feeling rage at you for making him feel inadequate, and finally, the sense of profound embarrassment aka shame for you to be seeing him this way? Maybe it would be better if the WS were to instead MAKE FRIENDS with those awful feelings.

2. 'I need to convince myself that I am worthy of love'. Well yeah in an abstract sense that is still certainly true. If a WS has a heart attack they still deserve CPR as much as the next person. Is a WS worthy of a RELATIONSHIP though? I am going to say outright NO. Is ANYONE deserving of a relationship? There are a lot of worthy people who are single, despite not wanting to be. The WS however, has the extra baggage of being entrusted with someone's heart and then throwing that away. Maybe they will be able to find love again with their BS, and if not, maybe someone will give them a chance maybe not. They are certainly not entitled to another chance though.

Some overarching thoughts of mine.

By 'not entitled to another chance' I don't mean that they deserve to suffer from here on out. At least, I don't see it that harshly nor do I wish that on anyone. By 'not entitled to another chance' I mean that it is not an injustice if their partner cannot look past the infidelity or if someone new finds past cheating to be a deal-breaker.