SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hi All,

There is something that my BS often asks when we talk about our current situation / progress and path to recovery.

How can a wayward (in our case, me) can ever make it fair? As in balancing out the books.

We are only months out of DDAY. We have our ups and our downs, but lately my BS told me that while he can see my efforts (otherwise he'd be already gone), he is not sure what I could ever do to make all of that happened "fair" between us (not that the A will ever feel fair, but as in making up for it).

We somewhat agree that becoming the best version of myself, doing the work, healing etc (basically becoming a safe partner) will only bring us to the place where we should always have been. Being a safe and caring partner should be a given, not something to make up for the A.

He is not interested in consequences as such (e.g. me paying a higher price for my actions).

He used this example: "you (the wayward) have a massive debt. Doing the work and healing will stop you from increasing that debt. It will maybe reduce it slightly, but as those actions should be standard, they will not clear the debt. How are you going to balance this? And no declaring bankruptcy."

We discussed some options, I tried to come up with something, but I am at loss. For context, the conversation was not heated, but it was quite analytical and open, with my BS sharing what he needs to move more on the path of reconciliation.

I know things are not linear and we will have to find our own answer at some point. I just wanted to hear if others have been here and how they moved from this stage in due time. Or what I can focus on (as a wayward) to address this point.

Again, I know there won't be a straight answer or "ready-made solution".
I also want to be sure I understand my BS and what he asking.

I think part of the BS's healing process is accepting that what happened will never be fair, that the scales will be unbalanced for a long time, until the weight of the infidelity disintegrates into forgiveness (or as close to forgiveness as one can get in their situation.)

I don't know if you're familiar with the concept of radioactive decay or half-life in chemistry, but basically, if you have a given mass of a substance and it's reactive, over time that mass will decrease (and you can observe this through changes in weight, as measured by a scale.) If a healthy marriage is one where the scale is level, infidelity is like a glob of radioactive material unbalancing that scale. It may take many years, but with the correct reaction from the WS and the healing of each spouse, the mass of the substance can reduce such that the scales are balanced, or close enough to balanced, again... Maybe not a great metaphor, but I tried.

ETA: In accounting, there's a thing call "Allowance for Doubtful Accounts," which helps to balance the accounting equation when dealing with debts that are unlikely to be collected... Maybe he could move your debt to a Doubtful account. Sort of like a forgive but not forget situation, if we're sticking with the financial metaphor.

What will your BH do if the books will never feel balanced again?

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 2:04 PM, Friday, July 3rd]

Hi Morbs,

I actually liked your metaphor (natural sciences are a big thing in our family).
And I see what you are saying and it is what I somewhat gathered from reading other posts here on SI.

I have tried in fact to reframe his example, and while it may have given him a different perspective, his current feelings towards the past (there is a debt to be paid - metaphorically speaking) have not changed for now.

We discussed "making up for it" via materialistic means (me giving up my share of the house) and similars, but nothing seemed "appropriate".

Currently, he mentioned that if this "feeling" of imbalance will stay, we probably won't be able to move past this. Which I "understand" and I accept...

I guess my "goal" here is to do whatever I can, rather than having a reaction that may be read as "just ignoring this debt thing and waiting things out".

I'm sorry, but I don't think your accounting or half-life decay analogies fit here.

Imagine you killed someone's child through a DUI. You can get sober, spent time in jail, reach remorse, start a scholarship, talk to high school students about the dangers of drunk driving...

There's nothing you can do to balance the scales with the death of the child. Nothing.

I think we all learn this as children. My siblings and I broke a vase playing ball in the house. We had the rule of no ball in the house. My mom was so upset. She cried for a long time. I didn't see her cry often. Her first college roommate made the vase. It was valuable to her. There was nothing we could do that would replace it.

I'm not trying to be harsh. Obviously the vase was not as important as a child. The concept is the same though.

KitchenDepht, the accounting analogy was my BS’, who tried to explain to me how he feels at the moment.

During our conversation we also mentioned the "losing a child" analogy (exactly the same scenario you used) just to make clear we understood where we both stood.

The point is that my BS feels there is a deep imbalance which seems impossible to address. He recognises all what I am doing, but he feels that "the work" will only bring me where I should have always been and will not make up for this imbalance / sense of injustice / debt that he feels.

You said:

There's nothing you can do to balance the scales

I guess what I am trying to gather is if there is anything else I can do, or maybe get a bit of other BSs’ perspectives when they felt this way and what helped.

[This message edited by LonelyGuilty at 4:17 PM, Friday, July 3rd]

I was referring to GotTheMorbs accounting, which as I understand it, sort of forgives the debt in an amorphous way?

It doesn't feel like an injustice that needs to be balanced to me. I can't speak to that as a BS. It feels like it exists; it's there. There's nothing that can be done. Much like the child or the vase, I don't think the person that did it can ever truly understand what that loss fully means to the other person.

Hang on, I did feel an injustice or unfairness at first. Much like the person losing a child in a DUI, you come to accept that unfairness exists. It just does. There's nothing that can be done.

My husband and I have both eliminated the words "deserve" in relationship to people or events that occur. If you accept that a person "deserves" a certain life or relationship based on their actions being good, then you have to also accept the concept that their actions are responsible for what happens to them in life good or bad. I don't accept that there was something the parents of the child dying in the DUI accident could have done some that made them deserve that.

I don't accept that I deserved the affair. I don't accept that I deserve a happy marriage because I was "good" either, though. So if you are looking for ways to earn your way back into your marriage and become deserving of a good marriage, I reject the basic premise.

[This message edited by KitchenDepth5551 at 5:25 PM, Friday, July 3rd]

In the months right after D-day I felt the need to "balance the scales" as well.

The only thing I could think of that would move the needle at all was for me to have sex with other people.

For context my wife and I were each others first, and there was no one else until her affair. So she got to have this experience at my expense, and I still haven't. Pretty frustrating for me.

Then I got to thinking about it, and what it would really take for me to feel a kind of balance.

In our case she had sex with her AP hundreds of times, in all sorts of places and environments. She spent time in a different city hanging out with him and acting like they were a legit couple. She got to try fantasies she wanted to try, and experience things differently. She got to experience deep feelings for another person. Essentially a full on parallel relationship. Of course it wasn't really a parallel relationship since it was built on lies. But it was very close and very intense for them.

That was all extremely hard for me.

After a while I realized that even if I did all that, found someone else, formed a deep relationship, had sex hundreds of times and got all those experiences, I still wouldn't feel it was balanced.

I even thought maybe she should go get an extra job, and compensate me financially for all the lost money and effort and now the rather large cost of therapy.

There was even a time where I considered a revenge affair just to communicate how it felt to her in a small way. She seemed to not understand the pain I was going through and I thought maybe that would help her understand, and give me some of those experiences she got as well.

I'm sure some of that that would have helped, but really the thing lost was not the sex, or the money, or her not understanding my pain. The thing lost was the deep trust I had. Trust like that unfortunately can never be replaced.

Even if we reconcile, and years from now I am happy that our relationship is so much better than it was before, there will still be that little part of me that knows she is capable of this and I'll be watching for it again. I suspect that that part of me will be watching even if I'm not with her. It's a scar that will never heal fully.

Unfortunately infidelity is EXTREMELY unfair to the betrayed partner(s), and there is nothing that can make it fair. Thats one of the more painful parts of infidelity in my opinion. Something was taken, without our permission, that can never be returned.

Unfortunately this feeling took a really long time to lessen for me, and it still pops up from time to time.

The best you can do is become a safe partner. Treat him with the kindness and respect of someone who gave you another chance even after the extreme and underserved pain you caused him. Either it will lessen over time with healing, or it won't.

If fairness is his deal breaker, then the best you can do is respect that and let him go with as little pain and struggle as possible, because there is nothing you can do to balance the scales.

[This message edited by Theevent at 5:06 PM, Friday, July 3rd]

There is no "evening the score".

IMO if the betrayed cheats they won’t feel good - they will resent their decision to cheat. And become more unhappy.

For some people the need to get even fades away. It becomes less important years later.

I know my H now worries I will D him (as I planned to do after his last affair). That doesn’t make me feel good but it does give him a taste of how I suffered when he planned to D me during his last affair. Only way to describe it was I was being kicked to the curb for the much younger OW.

But 13 years later I try not to look back and dwell in it. We are happily reconciled — and I try to remain focused on the present.

But it did take me a few years to get past the whole thing. While revenge affairs never my thing I can say that having a post nup after the affair was certainly comforting. It financially protects me so in that aspect I cannot complain. Maybe it’s a bit of even Steven - who knows?

As others have already noted — there is no way to balance the injustice of infidelity.

And yet, my wife tries anyway.

Her daily, relentless effort to show attention, affection and offer (maybe too many) apologies — eventually became our new normal.

Sorry loses meaning after infidelity. I know she felt that way, but it really does bounce off after the trauma of infidelity lands on someone.

She simply chose to show me she was serious about wanting me, wanting to stay and wanting to build/rebuild our relationship.

It is also important to note, I didn’t want it be imbalanced in my direction either.

I married my wife because she was a strong, independent soul who challenged me — I didn’t want her to lose ANY of that if I was going to stay.

Ultimately, R should lead to a relationship worthy of both partners.

Early on, I wasn’t much help — I had a tremendous amount of pain and sorrow to process. At the same time, my wife had to work on her issues without being trapped by the shame of her choices (not easy to do, to own those choices completely AND be able to help heal the M). My wife was very patient with my two steps forward, three steps back (for nearly THREE YEARS of that).

Ten years later, the same kindness, care and patience is how we both approach the M to make it what it SHOULD have been to begin with. And that part is me focusing on what we have NOW versus what was lost in the past.

I find your post very one-sided…

We somewhat agree that becoming the best version of myself, doing the work, healing etc (basically becoming a safe partner) will only bring us to the place where we should always have been. Being a safe and caring partner should be a given, not something to make up for the A.

Is he the best version of himself? Is he doing any work to be the best version of himself? Would your marriage be perfect if you became the best version of yourself, but he remained as he is?

I have a simplistic view on marriage and infidelity. Your affair gives your husband two options. He can divorce or he can decide to reconcile. If you BOTH decide to reconcile then yes – a part of the initial steps is an emphasis on you proving yourself a safe partner, while he is allowed to keep his guard up but needs to find a way to trust-but-verify to some level of functional trust.

Yes – You had the affair. Yes – no matter how he behaved pre-affair or the state of your marriage it neither justifies nor explains why you had an affair. It’s all totally on you.

But there is NO WAY you can heal, and he doesn’t and call it marriage. Unless he’s already the best version of himself.

Since you use the accounting term of balancing the books…

Legally – in many countries and states – once you marry you become one financial entity. Basically YOUR debts become HIS debts. And it’s not 50/50. It’s not like if you owed 100 on your car he pays 50 and you 50. As far as the law and collections go you are both accountable for the total amount. I think that emotionally it’s a comparable situation after d-day. If both decide to reconcile then he too needs to do some work. The emotional debt might be one you created, but he’s just as accountable in finding the way to deal with it.

Instead of you asking him or he telling you what you need to do for him to feel things are "even" then try this:

You two discuss how you envision a perfect marriage. What do you two want? Where do you two want to be in 6 months? 12 months? 10 years? Then decide what you need to do to reach that next goal. Part of that goal and work will definitely be due to your affair, but just like you need to make him feel safe, he needs to let go of resentment.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 6:56 PM, Friday, July 3rd]

For some people the need to get even fades away. It becomes less important years later.

This is what I meant with the half-life analogy. Radioactive substances dissipate and become less, and less heavy, with time. I have read accounts from some people who are reconciled and 10 plus years out, and that seems like what they describe.

With Doubtful accounts, the debt is accounted for, so the accounting equation is balanced. It' still considered a counter-asset, or eventually written off as a loss.

This is a subject I wrestle with well over a year later. I've concluded that the scales can never truly be balanced. This is one of the harsh truths of infidelity to me. It's an injustice that can never be made just. Sometimes life just plain isn't fair, and this is one of those situations. Anything short of a time machine can't erase that injustice.

I just have to accept that fact. If I choose reconciliation, I have to accept that the scales can never be properly rebalanced, but some semblance of acceptance or possibly even forgiveness can be achieved if my wife can demonstrate over time that she can be the safe, loving wife I want her to be.

I feel like the scales are balanced.
Told everyone what she was doing.
Then I wrecked her and his career since her and AP were Boss and underling in the financial sector. Bam Blacklisted.
I divorced her
Then I banged one of her close friends
Then I started dating women 10 years younger and much hotter than her.
Then I had incredible financial success, while she wallowed in shit low paying jobs.
Granted, this is all 2 or years and less since the divorce. Since she insisted on still sending me emails, I replied with all my "adventures." She finally got the hint.
Now it’s 23 years later and I couldn’t care less about if she’s alive or dead. Got a great life that I don’t think I could have ever had with her. So while it’s a bit different than you’re asking, and since your replies are mostly saying you can’t balance the scales, yes you most definitely can.

Make the offer of a hall pass or one sided open relationship. She what his reply to that is. It could be that is what he is fishing for from you.

GotTheMorbs,

With Doubtful accounts, the debt is accounted for, so the accounting equation is balanced. It' still considered a counter-asset, or eventually written off as a loss.

And I will again tell you as a BS 10 yrs out, this is not what it feels like to me. It doesn't feel "balanced" or "written off as a loss". It still feels like it's there, and we deal with it. I can't imagine it feels like a Doubtful account to the DUI parents either. I think you would be fooling yourself if you expect this from your BH in your marriage. Sorry.

I hear different things from different people, and I haven't formed any specific expectations yet. People heal various amounts in various time frames. My H and I will see how it goes and take the challenges as they come...

Again, analogies, metaphors, and other figures of speech are not perfect. We can't do math and apply that perfectly to human interactions and feelings, even if there are similarities. In accounting, there's an equation (Assets = liabilities plus equity) that has to stay "balanced" such that all income, expenditures, investments, labor, debts, depreciation, interest, etc. are properly accounted for. When someone owes the company an amount they don't expect to be able to collect, it's added to a doubtful account, so that the debt is still accounted for and the equation remains balanced. Eventually the doubtful account can closed out, the debt is accounted for in profit-and-loss statistics, and then that balance is no longer being tracked... You can see where the similarities and differences between a human relationship marred by infidelity and accounting principles lie, hopefully. Accounting "balanced" is not exactly the same thing as post-infidelity "balanced" or "fairness."

Like, I think the optimal goal after infidelity would be to get to a place where the BS may still engage in trust-but-verify, but they are seldom triggered by memories of the infidelity, the WS has fixed themself such that they are very unlikely to betray their partner again, and the marriage is healthy and functioning well. That's what full reconciliation and "forgiven but not forgotten" means to me. I hope to get there someday.

I have a different experience. At about 2 years out, I realized there was no justice in infidelity.

I could choose to cheat, but to be fair my ap would have to be a very unattractive man; that's not me. I could choose to D, but that wasn't me. I could choose to accept my W as she was at the time (and as I thought she was going to be as time played out), so I wrote off the debt as uncollectible.

Theoretically, I could have kept it on the balance sheet in the hope I could figure out a way to collect, but that isn't me - I like closure, if it's available. I'll admit I have a hope that plainsong figures out a way to pay me back. If she does, I'll account for it as a windfall.

Imagine having a family heirloom. Nothing overly expensive, but priceless to you none the less for what it represents. And then your partner burns it like a cheap log on a bonfire. There is no getting it back, and there is no real way to give value for value. It’s ashes, lost to entropy. That just has to be mourned and accepted.

Then you have to deal with the question of if you want to remain partnered with someone who would be so wantonly destructive. But they are separate matters entirely.

At least in the analogy of the DUI and the parents, do you not think killing their child and eventually calling it balanced or written off debt is insulting? It seems that way to me.

No I'm not keeping a balance sheet in marriage, and I'm not expecting my husband to pay off a debt. I explained that earlier. It's inherently unfair.

Yet pretending that it all doesn't exist still and is balanced now is insulting and belittling the significance of my experience. That is not what happened. That is not what it feels like. We didn't balance anything. We won't ever. If my husband said these things to me I would feel insulted.

But hey. Talk to your husband. Maybe he feels like there is something you do to make him feel that way. I don't know.

[This message edited by KitchenDepth5551 at 8:46 PM, Friday, July 3rd]

I'm not saying "pretend it doesn't exist." I'm not even the one who started up the finance/accounting/bookkeeping analogy in the first place.

I just think at some point when awful things happen to us, we have to move from anger/hurt to grief to acceptance, if not for anyone else but for ourselves, in order to find (somewhat imperfect) peace.

I've never lost a child, so I can't say for certain, but knowing my crazy ass I'd probably do some awful things to a drunk driver before taking their life too, even if it landed me in jail for the rest of my life. Books balanced, right? Except I would still be in my jail cell grieving my child and being furious with the dead driver, asking God why tf this happened. I imagine it would take a very long time, but eventually I'd need to accept my child was gone, grieve her loss, and make peace with that. Because what else could I do?

My H is at the grieving stage, I think. He's stopped being angry with me (at least for now) and asking "How could you do this to me? Why??" and started saying things like, "I just wish it hadn't happened. I wish I could see your phone on the floor at night and just plug it in without a second thought, instead of worrying whether you were up using it in secret..." And I grieve the way things were before my infidelty too. I trust that we will keep moving forward.

I guess I'm asking if you are ok with what is being said here.

I'm not your husband. I don't know what he's going through. You have to ask him and listen to him and talk to him. I wonder if you do that with him or argue you own points of what he will and should do based on someone else's experience. My experience with you as a BS reconciled over 10 years makes me feel like you are asking for a response, but you also want to argue that my response is invalid. Do you want responses that validate your view? Do you want to argue?

You are not responding to what i say and others do here with understanding or empathy to me. I guess we are outliers for your experience? Ok, then. What's your point in being here? What are you getting out of this? Do you want me not to respond to you or to ignore this? I'm confused.