SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

So some background. I’m 55 my wife is 51. Married 25 years last May. I’d known her for years before we officially met and the years prior to meeting I felt we had a connection. She lost her mother to breast cancer at 10 and she lost her father to cancer/blood clot at 23, the year before we officially met/started dating. I knew I wanted to marry her right away as she is the type of girl I’d always envisioned spending the rest of my days with. As with so many others, kids entered the picture, excess work, being tired and the sex life became somewhat stale. I’d told her several times that I really wanted to be able to fully please her in that arena and had asked a couple times what she’d like, or what I could do for her as she didn’t seem like she was enjoying intimacy. Her response then was "I can’t think of anything ". That was quite a blow and eventually I felt like a failure in that regard and we kind of drifted away in the intimacy department. We still enjoyed spending time together, going on trips, playing games, we seemed generally very happy, just not intimate. I drifted toward not initiating sex as I knew from past experiences that she would show no enjoyment and that would end up depressing me with no way to fix it. Any time she wanted to get intimate, we did, but she would have to initiate it. Fast forward to fall of 2020 and one day she flirted with me and that caused me to say F it and just go for it. It went great and from that point on we really progressed in the sex department. It was getting to the point that I felt our marriage had finally turned the corner and we were on track to really going where we hoped to be. I was still working a ton trying to help pay to send 2 boys through college and keep up with investing for our future retirement when one day in March of 2021 something in my gut felt wrong.

She liked to hike a lot and as she was usually alone I could keep tabs on her through find a phone in case she got home late. One day she was going for some new tires and I saw she went to a local lake instead for a little while. I texted but no answer, I called and again no answer. 15 minutes later she called me back and angrily said she was waiting on word about her tires and was on the phone with her friend. Lie #1. After that I got suspicious and started researching infidelity. I put Verizon messenger on her phone so I could see text messages. It only barely worked until March 31 when it picked up some texting between her and her AP. I watched the messaging unfold and tracked her on her phone going to meet him at the lake again. I had to sit by and watch the progress as I was commuting between two different towns to give work estimates helpless to intercept them. I did call a local friend who did a drive by and reported that they were just talking in separate vehicles and he said he could see she was crying. Later that afternoon a phone number became available through the Verizon device and a quick google search showed it was a local friend who is director at our town funeral home. That afternoon I bumped into him at a chiropractor office and that was gut wrenching.
Later that evening, my wife, who hadn’t been sleeping great, went up to the spare bedroom (I sometimes snore) and when she did I went to the recliner and waited and watched the messenger app. It began that night with then exchanging pictures of themselves when they were younger, then moved to why they felt so compatible. After that it moved to the detailed description of the things he’d be doing to her at that moment if she was there with him. He described their situation as something that maybe happens for a reason and hinted about how maybe they could end up together. She responded with "Sounds amazing and unobtainable ". Shortly after she came downstairs for a snack and saw me sitting there not sleeping and asked if it was still work bothering me, I said no it was her and Mark. She dropped to a footstool and her first words were "I don’t want to be with him, I want to be with you". She explained a bit of how it all came about, I then began my research into infidelity and how it affects both spouses. I never once yelled at her or showed anger toward her. I was emotionally crushed. I could have never thought she could do that to me. We pretty quickly hashed out the Joe’s and why’s this could have happened ( not that it helped me much) but I did understand, and I have been very understanding of the feelings she must have been feeling through it all. For the first 12 months she maybe once said she was sorry, and it was only a "I’m sorry" (after one year she admitted to not thinking she should have to apologize after the way I treated her for years, remember my lack of intimacy due to feeling like a failure). About 6 months ago, after a bit of IC and prescriptions for Zoloft (I now suffer from pretty intense depression), I found the sticky here on what wayward spouses need to know about their betrayed spouse. I copied that and sent it to her in a text and asked that she read it. I told her that it was pretty spot on about how I feel aside from the anger parts. I told her that if she didn’t begin to step up and take more of a part in R that she stood a good chance of losing me. She said she read the article and that it was very good. That being said, she still shows no remorse. Never really has. On a few rare occasions she has made a small comment that made me start to think she was "getting it", but then nothing. I could count those instances on one hand and have fingers left over. She really seems to sincerely love me, we hug, hold hands, kiss passionately, enjoy our sexual experiences, but I honestly don’t think she has the mental capability to cope with the pain of the aftermath. I asked her if she has ever ready an articles on affair recovery and she said no. She said it makes her feel bad and why would she want to feel that way. My therapist tells me that if I show how much work I’m putting in, it might compel/convince her to step up her part of R. It has not. I think she just wants to put it behind us, act like it never happened and move on with our lives. Neither once of us sleep very well anymore and I know I don’t because of the affair and the lack of recovery, I think I know why she doesn’t sleep but she doesn’t talk about it. I used to check in weekly with how I’ve been doing but I stopped that because it was always just me talking and no real rapport between us. Occasionally something I say would make her upset then she would especially quiet and usually just walk away. She said when she gets that way she just wants to be alone and not even see me. When she’s that way I just want to hold her and tell her it will be alright but in those moments, that’s the opposite of what she wants. I’m come to terms with the physical affair for the most part, but right now I’m struggling with feeling like I just matter enough to her to be worth the effort for an effective recovery.
After D day I addressed her concerns point blank. I stopped working on weekends to devote time to her, I began planning days together so she wasn’t always the one doing it. I acknowledge to her how attractive I find her and how much I love her and how desperately I want to be happy for the rest of our days. I wish she would finally just "get it" and show me that I truly matter to her. im in seventh heaven when we are together doing things and going places, but when I’m alone, I’m in hell feeling unwanted and it’s just getting worse.
Well, that was a long post and I’m sure there’s more to it but I need a break from typing.
So as a BS, am I being unreasonable i my actions or beliefs. I can’t make her do something she doesn’t want to do, nor do I want to. I want her to want to help, and I’m not sure how to do that. I’m just going day by day and trying to survive.

I guess I forgot to mention, it has been 20 months since D Day. I officially found out on April 1st. How’s that for a trigger. I’ll always be the April fool. 🥺

After D day I addressed her concerns point blank. I stopped working on weekends to devote time to her, I began planning days together so she wasn’t always the one doing it. I acknowledge to her how attractive I find her and how much I love her and how desperately I want to be happy for the rest of our days.

This stuck out to me….as in some form of positive reinforcement of her A. Look up the 180 method and see if that’s appropriate for your situation. Good luck.

So a quick google search on the 180 method would seem to indicate that what I did was a good thing. I have since bought a mustang convertible and a Harley to enjoy for myself. The motorcycle threw her for a loop because she wanted to know what was up with me impulsively doing these things. But to see your remark makes me believe the 180 method is bad. Now I’m more confused.

And wouldn’t the changes I made be for the better of the relationship. I simply didn’t realize how much I was working prior to this point for 10-15 years (business owner in construction). I get how this action could justify the affair, but I don’t know what the proper response should have been.

[This message edited by Copingmybest at 12:15 PM, Thursday, December 1st]

I get how this action could justify the affair, but

……..ah, forget it

I suppose I should have typed: I get "now" how this could justify the affair.

I get how this action could justify the affair, but I don’t know what the proper response should have been.

NOTHING justifies an affair. NOTHING. It didn't matter what YOU did...your wife made a conscious CHOICE to have an affair. This is ALL on HER.

I am not sure where you read about it...but there is an article in The Healing Library link at the top of this page that talks about the 180.

So as a BS, am I being unreasonable i my actions or beliefs. I can’t make her do something she doesn’t want to do, nor do I want to. I want her to want to help, and I’m not sure how to do that. I’m just going day by day and trying to survive.

No Sir...you aren't being unreasonable at all. I completely AGREE with you about not being able to MAKE her do something she doesn't want to do. I used to feel that because I couldn't MAKE my H do something he didn't want to do...then I would have to ACCEPT him like this and change MY ways. This feeling changed after Dday.

I STILL feel that I can't MAKE my H do something he doesn't want to do. HOWEVER...I REFUSE to change MY core anymore. It is a subtle difference in my mindset...but it has made the MOST impact. I will not accept something I don't agree with. WE will come up with some kind of compromise...but it WILL NOT be one sided anymore.

I understand how you want her to want to help...and that is a great place to start . Maybe you can talk to her about this...and see what she says about it? You may be able to find out exactly how SHE feels about wanting to help you...but maybe not knowing HOW?

My H told me on Dday that he would do ANYTHING I wanted from him...if he would just be allowed to stay in my life. Whenever we would be in a situation where you and your wife are now...I would very matter of factly bring this up to my H. The walking away...getting quiet...showing anger...that was NOT going to cut it for me. I NEEDED answers that only HE could help me with. When he would get defensive...I brought it up to him what he said about doing ANYTHING to just be in my life.

You will get LOTS of advice on here...and many times some of the advice will be contradictory to others. That is fine...we are all unique individuals going on different paths to healing and reconciliation. You just take the advice that HELPS you...and leave the rest .

What I am going to advise is NOT what some people on here believe in. It worked for ME...and that is the only advice I can give...what worked in MY case . Dr. Phil often says that we TEACH people how to TREAT us. I took that literally. I had been a GIVER in our M...accepting the way my H was. I knew when I married him that he was a TAKER. That didn't bother me...because I was a GIVER. I felt it complemented our relationship. When he TOOK our precious M and DESTROYED it...that was when he had crossed a line. I wasn't going to JUST be a GIVER anymore...and HE was going to have to be more of a GIVER than the TAKER that he was.

I issued ULTIMATUMS on Dday. I told my H that he didn't HAVE to do ANY of them...but if he didn't do EVERY ONE...we were DONE. He gave me that answer about doing ANYTHING...so I held him to it. They weren't big ultimatums...the first one was that he had to immediately write a NC message to the adultery co-conspirator...and NEVER talk to her again. He gladly did that with no hesitation.

I taught my H that I was NOT going to hold anything in anymore. He was going to be there for me to talk to...to rant to...and even feel my RAGE if need be. He didn't like it...he got defensive...and there were screaming matches at times. But he did NOT walk away without me following him and letting him know that I wasn't finished!!! He soon learned that the best way to get through this stuff was to interact with me. Lesson learned .

This wasn't easy. It got downright UGLY at times. But HE put me in this infidelity HELL...and HE was going to help me OUT of it!!! I just let him know by my actions that I was going to keep this up until he was ready to help. He didn't like the arguing and yelling...so I told him that if HE would TRY to do what I needed...I would TRY and tamper the arguing and yelling. He tried...so I tried .

I have to say though...that this took YEARS...but we made it to the other side . I felt HEARD. I felt CHERISHED. And I felt RESPECTED. RESPECT goes both ways. My H didn't respect me or our M...but worst of all...he didn't respect himself.

Your wife probably feels the same way. She was USED...just like everyone who has an A is. An affair is nothing more than just two people who USE each other to get something they want. It can't feel good to KNOW that she was USED like that...especially for a few ego kibbles. She understandably does NOT want to relive that part of her past. But this is a CONSEQUENCE of her choice to have an A. As the saying goes...We are free to choose our actions. We are not free to choose the consequences of our actions. In fact...that was the word I would calmly say to my H when he would start to get defensive...consequence. HE CHOSE THIS action...so he had to face the CONSEQUENCE of this action.

As time went on...my NEED for him to sit in this infidelity HELL got less and less. Once I was able to get my needs met...we could move on. I TAUGHT my H how to TREAT me. I had to undo a lot of what I had taught him throughout our 28 year M at that time !!

It will come with some growing pains. But change rarely comes without discomfort. You can't have a successful R unless BOTH parties are ALL IN. Once your wife understands this...and you as well...that is when y'all can move TOWARD one another . From what you have written...y'all haven't been moving that way in a long while. It CAN happen...IF that is what you BOTH want . It is best to have this discussion now. IF she doesn't want that...then you can implement the 180. But IF she does...and y'all work toward R...it can be MAGICAL !!!

Sorry you find yourself here. Look, your WW is a pretty typical cheater. She doesn’t want to address her brokenness that could allow her to betray you and violate her own morals. She’d rather blame you for her lack of integrity and rugsweep her A. In response, you have done the pick me dance. It never works.

If you take nothing from this site, remember this: nothing you did or didn’t do in your M caused your WW to cheat. Your WW cheated because she wanted to do it. Period. There is never a justification or rationalization for cheating. Your WW had plenty of legitimate options to address your marital issues without cheating.

People in happy M cheat. People in mediocre M cheat.

Millions of people are in M where they feel ignored, unloved, disconnected, or taken for granted, but they never cheat on their spouse. Why? Because they made a solemn vow not to do it. Period. This is not rocket science. On your wedding day, did your WW tell you that she would only be faithful while she’d is “happy”?

Of course not.

Have your WW read “ How To Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair” by McDonald. A short and informative read.

Your M did not fail. Your WW failed you to remain faithful. She needs to address what led her to cheat in therapy or some other format. If you rugsweep her A, you run the risk of a repeat A, the next time your WW is not happy because you left the toilet seat up or forget to take out the garbage. You work on any marital issues later after you believe she is remorseful and can be a safe partner. Good luck.

Nobody wants to be the villain in their own story, but unless your wife shows you some actual empathy about the pain she caused you, there really isn’t going be a chance to rebuild something she broke.

My therapist tells me that if I show how much work I’m putting in, it might compel/convince her to step up her part of R. It has not.

OK ... so now you have a choice between changing your behavior and living with a WS with whom you are not connecting the way you want to connect.

I required a number of behavioral changes from my W. I didn't have to issue ultimatums because my W saw that she had to make major changes, and my requirements fit in with that.

But mine were real requirements: if she didn't make the changes I wanted, I think I would have D'ed. I spent no time justifying my requirements ... I believe that M requires a fit between 2 people's wants, and it's OK to want what one wants.

*****

You can't R unless the WS deals with their own issues, the issues that enabled them to cheat. White-knuckling can keep a person from having an A, but it also keeps the white-knuckler at least partially unavailable to the relationship. That's part of what kept me faithful during my road warrior years - I could cheat while out of town, but I'd have to keep it secret, and that would be a big barrier to my relationship with my W.

Your W isn't R material right now. You owe it to yourself to outline requirements for R and see if she signs on. Maybe she'll refuse, but maybe she's just waiting for you to draw a line in the sand.

Let go of the outcome. Make surviving and thriving your goal, with or without your WS. Sometimes - often - you have to risk your M to save it.

*****

IOW, I'm saying the same things other responders have said - if you want your M to change, you have to act in your own best interests and watch how your W responds.

*****

The 180 is antithetical to R - R requires lots of communication; the 180 minimizes communication.

The 180 is aimed at helping the BS find the strengths necessary to detach from the WS and move to D. Sometimes that results in the WS getting their head out into the open air, but the 180 will fail if it's used a tool for manipulating the WS back into the M. It fails because the WS won't do the necessary work unless the WS wants to do it.

The 180 document is an unordered, internally contradictory list of tactics. A much better description can be found here: https://survivinginfidelity.com/topics/598080/the-simplified-180/.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:14 PM, Thursday, December 1st]

Sisoon, thanks for that link to the crib sheets on the 180. After reading through it, I’ll say I am sort of guilty of initially going the "pick me" route. But the change I made were really more of a " this is how a proper loving spouse should behave" I became understanding and supportive of her, but then late in the summer I think I started in on the soft 180. The convertible Mustang I bought for myself. I had decided it was time for me to become less selfless and more selfish in life. God damn it, I earned it with the sacrifices I made by giving up the things I loved most for family. I was determined to enjoy that car and if she wanted to come along, all the better, but I was fine going it alone. Then in the spring I bought the Harley. I used to race Motocross but I gave that up when I met her and she wasn’t really into bikes. She didn’t like me getting the bike, said she’d never ride on it. Fine with me. However, several times this last summer she suggested we go for a motorcycle ride. Again, fine with me. You are welcome to tag along, but I enjoy the bike by myself and with my other riding buddies just fine. I’m slowly learning to accept going this life alone if need be. I’m sure the big D would be a mess as I own a construction business and I’m sure it would get messed up, but it is what it is. I’d prefer to live my life with her because the events of the affair are maybe 25% of what our relationship is about, so I’m willing to work on it. But honestly if she doesn’t care enough to put in the effort, or if she thinks I deserve this or that she was entitled to the affair, then I guess maybe it’s best if we just move on. Time will tell.

[This message edited by Copingmybest at 7:01 PM, Thursday, December 1st]

Your approach sounds great on the surface. That said, there is a glaring hole in your thought process.

Gently...the criticism of your approach would be that you are 20 months from DDay. 20 months...almost 2 years.

How long will you allow her to try to rug sweep this affair? The longer you allow it, the harder it will be for her as she gets comfortable in her denial of reality...which is exactly what rug sweeping is.

And why would she not rug sweep it? You clearly are not going anywhere. No matter what you say, your actions say that you are going to stay...even if she rug sweeps.

Listen, brother; I know this is tough, but hope is not a strategy. She has crossed a boundary by rug sweeping. What has her consequence been? Your answer to that is your way out of rug sweeping.

Good luck, brother.

Her choice to have an affair and blow up your marriage, and then her subsequent lack of remorse and unwillingness to face the gravity and consequences of that choice are the real issues, along with her unwillingness to own what she did and do the long hard work of recovery.

It sounds like you have taken the steps in your control to reconcile and build something better. It sounds like you’ve even gone beyond that, allowing yourself to take some of the blame for her affair (owning your failings and changing them is good, but they are no excuse for her to cheat).

In your shoes I would articulate clearly, verbally or in writing, that her lack of remorse and unwillingness to address and work through the affair are unacceptable and incompatible with what you need and want in the relationship. Then I would do a hard 180 and set a time for myself down the road (six months?) to evaluate whether to stay in or leave the relationship.

I’m so sorry this is happening to you. And good for you buying the car and the bike. Enjoy them.

I’m Encouraged you did things for yourself. Smart move.

Your wife really is in denial and her lack of anything is detrimental.

You have out in 100% effort and she is not even close. That will breed resentment and unhappiness over the long haul. You will always wonder why you weren’t worth fighting for or why your wife continues to avoid the pain she inflicted on you.

I think you need to heal yourself. And then decide if you want to continue to stay in this relationship.

You point out you have a construction company. I’m certain you can figure out some way to avoid financial disaster if you chose to D. A good attorney can help you if you should decide you no longer want to stay married.

Thanks for the advice everyone. It’s been helpful. I guess it’s time to shit or get off the pot. Sleep has become increasingly non existent and now I’m seeing my blood pressure climb when it never has in the past. I know I can’t go on his way much longer so as mentioned above, maybe it’s time to draw a line in the sand and establish a timeline for her to decide if I’m really worth the effort to reconcile. If not, then I may as well consider the fact that maybe it’s time to just move on with my life. I’m sure the D process would be a pain in the ass but at least there would be an ending, a regrouping, and a push off into a new and hopefully more joyful direction.

A few things I haven’t seen mentioned in your post:

Has your wife cut contact with AP and have you been able to verify that?

Has she been sharing her devices?

Is she transparent about where she’s going and what she’s doing?

Has she answered all your questions about the affair?

Bluer,
Yes she called him the next morning after I found out and told him I knew, and that I knew it was him.
No, I can’t confirm that but I actually do believe she cut contact with him. I spoke to him the next day and they both know that they will never speak to each other again in life or I will upend their worlds.

She gives me access to her phone any time I asked for it. She’s open about that.

She lets me know where she’s going and we both have find a phone so we can each see the others location and movements.

She pretty much answered all my questions.

As mentioned above, the main hang up currently is her lack of effort in recovery.

So let me sum up what I read from your bio and your post.
Summary:
She had a 9 month affair and says she slept with him twice.
On d-day you simply told her to knock it off. You never yelled.
She gave you a list of reasons why she had the affair and convinced you it was your fault.
You then started IC, she is not in IC and you have actively done everything to improve for her.
You stopped IC because it isn't helping anymore because it always comes back to you wondering what it will take for her to improve.
She thinks she doesn't need to improve, say sorry, or adjust anything.
She has an open phone policy with you now.
She also refused to read any articles or admit to fault in the affair.
You are at 20 months and you are starting to get angry because she hasn't improved.

Questions:
Did you get a satisfactory timeline?
Did you have sex right after the affair came to light?
If not, then how long was that on pause?
You said the sex decreased when you got busy, so how is it now?

What is happening:
You put in all the effort and gave her the husband she wanted, but she hasn't become the wife you wanted. So, she cheated, blamed you, you became amazing, and now she wants you to just move on and not talk about it.
You buried your anger. The blood pressure, lack of sleep, and now frustration which is anger all is your anger. You have been directing it at other people in your life I bet. You need to find your anger. Dig it up and find out what you are really angry about.
I bet you want her to change, become more honest, become more loving, and openly talk about the affair and what it did to you.
She will never change anything without you pushing her. So, lets talk about where you are willing to push. I don't think you will D, but you need to show her you are pulling back from this marriage. So, lets talk about what you can do. This is going to seem super petty because just sitting down with written up D papers and a choice would be the best approach. Lets see if she gets the passive aggressive side.
So, you would be picking a fight. You already bought a car and bike just to see what she would do. She bocked a little, then got on board. Keep pushing that line. Lets first ask about your sleeping arrangement? If you are in the same bedroom, change that. If she makes dinner all the time and wants a sit down meal, then start getting dinner with your buddies away from her. Build as much room as possible between her and you. Then determine how long this is going to happen. Eventually, I bet she out waits you. So you will have to sit her down and have the talk about D or changes.
Go talk to a lawyer. Find out what it would take to divorce your wife. Then walk into a sit down outside the home with her that you each drive to. I would say at the lake where the affair happened. Tell her either she does like you did and fixes her side of the marriage or you are going to see what being single will be like. You will want a hotel room lined up for that night. In prep for that meeting, you will need to have a clear list of what you really want.

So, this is a perfect place to start your list.
Lets be specific.
1) She owes you a year in IC herself.
2) She needs to one day a week celebrate that you are still married. Not a date, she puts in the effort. This is because she put in effort with this other guy, so you expect the same.
3) She needs to come up with a solid "Why" she thought she deserved an affair that doesn't have your name in it once. You may have been missing when she made the decision, but she made the decision long before she cheated. She sat down and weighed whether to leave you or to have an affair because she wasn't happy. Your job was not to make her happy, so she needs to figure out what changed. She had something inside her change not something you did like work a long weekend.
4) She needs to write out how you feel after the affair from your point of view.
5) She needs to write out 50 ways you are better than the other guy.
6) She needs to get scary honest with you.
7) She needs to let you get scary honest with her. (Scary honest is you get a piece of paper. You assume you are going to die and you need someone to know all the good and bad things you ever did in your life. You entrust them to each other. I bet you still love her afterward. The question is going to be if she will still love you.)
8) My friend came up with this because he just recently found out his girlfriend cheated on him and it was hilarious but made sense. She has to talk you up to everybody she knows. This is to reverse any negative things she said about you while she was preparing to cheat or cheating.

Good luck. Maybe copy my list, trim it up, personalize it, then repost and we can help.

Copingmybest

Blunt comment coming -

You could choreograph a pick-me dance.

I'm not an expert on female attractiveness to a male but - my experience has been that once a female has "lost that lovin' feeling" - it is OVER. Time to lick your wounds and move on.

Mates often carry on in a broken/dead relationship because of the logistics of having a place to sleep and a way to pay the bills. Children? Nah - I'm from a eff'd up pair of rabbits and I am still not right in all respects to relating to the fairer sex. But she tolerates me - see above.

To re-iterate - once the feeling is gone - you are just a footnote in their history of life.

Something that stood out to me from your post was that it sounds like your wife may have an attachment to you vs. loving you. There are different categories of attachments disorders.

What are the 4 attachment disorders?
secure attachment
anxious-insecure attachment
avoidant-insecure attachment
disorganized-insecure attachment

Signs and symptoms of an attachment disorder
An aversion to touch and physical affection
Control issues.
Anger problems.
Difficulty showing genuine care and affection.
Lack of inhibition.
An underdeveloped conscience.
Have realistic expectations.
Stay patient.

There is an excellent podcast on infidelity and she lays this all out very clearly.
Heal from Infidelity, by Andrea Giles, Episode 62