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I will keep it brief.....

Yesterday evening, my BW and I had a disagreement. She stormed off upstairs and I had no idea whether she would return. The kids and I were downstairs watching a TV series and they were eating their dinner. 

After their show they asked what they were doing next and I told them it was there lamp time/they could go upstairs.

When she then came downstairs about 30 minutes later, she asked me why have the kids gone upstairs. I said "their programme has finished and you stormed off upstairs". I wasnt pissy but I was upset and frustrated. She asked me again, why have the kids gone upstairs. Again I repeated "their programme has finished and you stormed off upstairs". 

This is a programme we all sometimes watch together, but my BW and the kids like it more then I do (I'd happily watch with them but it really isnt my bag). Anyway, earlier in the day we agreed that we would watch something with them but after this I wasnt really feeling it.

Regardless I called the kids down and asked if they would like to watch another episode with us. My youngest then replied "but you told us to go upstairs" (which is true, I did tell them them to go up). 

At this, BW disappeared upstairs...

Her view is - I have lied, yet again. She asked why the kids went upstairs and I had purposefully lied to her and said they went upstairs because she had stormed off. She feels I was trying to manipulate her and make her feel bad and deliberately left out the fact that I had told them to go upstairs, which is the real reason they went up, not because of her storming off. 

My view is - I wasn't lying. Their TV show had finished and she had stormed off upstairs, so that's why I told them to go upstairs. I wasnt pissed off and certainly wasnt trying to upset her and I certainly wasnt lying to her, in my view I gave her the reasons as to why I sent them upstairs and was absolutely shocked when she accused me of lying literally shocked dumbfounded and confused 😔

Just trying to gauge people's views and opinions on this topic

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[This message edited by Tinytim1980 at 12:53 PM, Friday, March 20th]

Sounds like a big misunderstanding and my advice would be to just apologise.

It seems like you were saying you sent them upstairs because the show had ended and your wife had gone upstairs so you assumed she didn't want to continue with your original plans.

The way she's taken it, and I must admit I can totally see where she's coming from too, is that you've said to her they went upstairs because she stormed off, and you were passing the blame on to her.

I would approach her gently, explain what you really meant and that you weren't actually blaming her. You meant that you sent them upstairs because you thought she wasn't coming back down, not that the reason they went upstairs was because she had stormed off, because that makes it sound like they were upset with her. It sounds like she feels as though you were trying to make her feel bad for her behaviour when she was just upset about something. Does that make sense?

Apologise for making her feel that way.

I don't know what your story is but if you're the WS, I would advise you to handle any situation like this with patience, understanding and care, no matter how frustrating it is for you.

I have read your previous posts and I think she is concerned that you continue to lie. I include lying by omission as lying. I regularly look to see if my husband is lying as in the past he was prepared to lie. I’m not prepared to tolerate any lies. I find lying unattractive and it reminds me of a 15 year old lying to his dad about where he has been. I picture a small boy with his hands stuffed in his pockets, looking at he floor and sullenly grunting replies.

The term ‘stormed off’ suggests you think she over reacted to the situation. She may have left the room to either stop the arguement. To cry alone. To calm and soothe herself. Or because she hates your guts. It may be all of those and more.

How did you feel when she left the room?
Why do you think she left the room?
What did you argue about?
What is upset and frustrated to you?

Did you use ‘storm off’? If the situation was getting tense maybe thank her for leaving to diffuse the situation. Have you read the Gottman information on flooding?

Sorry but all of that sprang into my head and I think the answers to those questions may help us to help you.

Also blame. Do you think blame is important? What’s your take on blame?

If a programme or situation triggers me it comes like a bolt out the blue.

I regularly say ‘if I could snap my fingers and fix everything I would. I don’t want to be in the situation YOU chose to put us in. I would not have put us here. I am not apologising for the fact that my reaction to the traumatic situation isn’t what you want it to be’.

But if you want to have a chance at keeping your marriage then don’t lie. If you do lie, tell her you lied and tell her why you lied and apologise.

I no longer tolerate a lot of what I once tolerated. That may end my marriage. I’m okay with that now. He wasn’t happy with the 80% he once got from me. He now has far less than 80%. He can put his all in and make the best of it. Or he can cheat to get the missing bits. I can’t control that but I won’t tolerate it. She is likely observing you to see who you really are. So write your values down and live by them.

If you want to be the man who is understanding then take a breathe and look for the positive in your wife leaving the room. Then thank her when she returns. ‘I’m glad you are back, I am sorry if you were upset. I sent the kids up to read, would you like to watch another show or shall we go read with/to them?’

I'm glad you posted in this forum. I hope you really hear my response, but I fear you will blow it off. I'll try anyway.

You're what? A few years past dday? Yet, you admit to more TT a few months ago. A few weeks after that,you posted,upset that she wasn't believing you. Upset that she didn't trust you. This, after you told her she was "unlovable. "

Now..here you are..upset, and shocked that she is saying you lied.

And you did.

You told the kids to go upstairs.

Then,when she asked where the kids were, you left that detail out,and told her the show was over, and they went upstairs because she "stormed out." You absolutely made it sound as if the only reasons the kids went upstairs was because the one show wad over and because she left the room. You didn't tell her you told them to go. That's a huge detail to leave out. You made it sound like the kids left because of her. As a BW,and a mom, if I were her, I would have felt guilty that my kids felt the need to go to their rooms, because I got upset. I would feel I ruined their fun. But..no..the kids left because YOU told them to go. It sounds like you wanted her to feel bad for "storming off." Also..that phrase shows a lack of empathy.

Before, you posted in the other forum, and recieved validation. You were told she needed to decide to be all in, she needed to do the work. You were told that by members who didn't realize it had only been about 6 weeks since your last bout of TT. NO BS should be all in, with a ws who continues to lie. Just because you finally told the entire truth, doesn't mean a wand is waved,and she suddenly will believe you're going to stop traumatizing her. You've taught her not to trust her.

You lied. You told the kids to go. You left that detail out. It's a pretty glaring detail.

[This message edited by HellFire at 1:19 PM, Monday, July 8th]

I've reread your post. Honestly, I'm genuinely curious.

I told them it was there lamp time/they could go upstairs.

I said "their programme has finished and you stormed off upstairs"

Do you not see the difference here? Reading those 2 quotes..Do you really not see the difference?

Why didn't you tell her you told them to go upstairs? Why did you purposely leave that part out..until the kid told her you told them to leave?

It sounds like you wanted to make her feel bad. To punish her for "storming off."

I'm sure your first reaction is to dismiss what I've said. But, I promise your wife is seeing what I am. Instead of fighting against it,take it in. Sit with it. Your wife isn't the bad guy here. She is a woman who has been traumatized by you. You said you had a disagreement. Why? I'm not saying a bs is right all the time. Lord, no. But I am saying that a ws who wants R needs to pick their battles. Not every thing needs to be a disagreement. She's dealing with a lot.

What can you do today, to make her life better? If you were to adopt that attitude, you would be a happier man.

I don’t understand the phrase "lamp time". Was this your childrens’ standard time to go to bed and your instruction was a mere parenting formality? Or was it an unusual time to send the kids to their room and if so, why did you do it?

I think the use of the phrase "stormed off upstairs" sounds unnecessarily inflammatory. You say you were calm, but those words delivered with a calm voice would still sting.

On a 1-10 scale here, how would you grade your own performance on being empathetic to your wife?

How did you feel when she left the room?

I was upset, but that's all it was. I wasnt annoyed or angry at all about that as she has often done this.

Why do you think she left the room?

I'm not actually able to recall what it was that sent her off upstairs or whether this was something that she was going to do regardless.

What did you argue about?

Earlier issue where she accused me of being unempathatic and pissed off....I wasn't pissed off just shocked at something which happened earlier in the day with a thought she bought up. I struggled to really respond as after I did and apologised for this mess it all got fairly awkward but later we tried to make various repair attempts.

What is upset and frustrated to you?

Frustrated to me is when I am stifled and unable to actually talk, my BS is terrible at listening she interrupts and cuts me off a word or two into my sentence making it literally impossible to actually convey how I feel.

Upset to me is more a general feeling of negativity and despair...

Also blame. Do you think blame is important? What’s your take on blame?

Blame is a mixed bag, it can be important however at the same time it doesnt need to be. Do I blame her for the affair absolutely fuck no that's all on me and I would never blame her for that. I don't even blame her for some of the stuff that I get told or is said about me and nor would I blame her for wanting to walk.

Last night I had no desire to blame her for anything and it didnt even enter my orbit as at that point the kids didnt have a clue and it wasnt like they were wanting or desperate to watch something with us. I just pointed out she stormed off (which is dramatic as she really didn't) and the kids show had finished my take on it was simple therefore and as the person above has highlighted my view is just that it's a miscommunication of which I apologised for last night if that were the case...but her stance is no you are lying!!!

Hell fire,

Appreciate your comments and as i mentioned above, I tried to apologise for it seeming that way as I it was never my intention to hurt her or deceive her and to be frank I think there are definitely barriers to the way in which we write and say things. I am fully aware that in black and white stuff comes across as very direct whereas pitch and tone play an important part in our everyday language. I never meant for her to take yesterday as an attack on her parenting or to make her feel guilty.... I wasnt blaming her and the kids certainly weren't so to me why feel guilty about it when it wasnt even on the table in the first place. Irrespective if she had turned to me at the time and said she was upset or hurt by it then I would naturally have told her not to be blooming silly and that it wasnt the case at all as I have said so many times when she bas come to me with concerns about how the kids are etc.

I do not expect a wand to be waved and I dont expect to have her just bend the knee so to speak. As mentioned above the storming off comment I realise was dramatic, no slamming doors and no screaming etc but I would literally be here all day tapping away if I had to write down the rights and wrongs that we have BOTH done during this period of time.

As the first poster highlighted, miscommunication is my opinion and was upon immediate discovery that she was upset and hurt by the comment for which I said I'm sorry for especially if she believed that is what I meant. My reason for posting (and she wrote this thread btw) was to try and gauge people's responses as to whether or not MISCOMMUNICATION can happen or whether people would see this as an out right lie.

As I know if I posed this question in person to someone using the same pitch and tone they would be hard pushed to understand how it was a lie and would agree it is just a miscommunication

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[This message edited by Tinytim1980 at 12:53 PM, Friday, March 20th]

Ink,

It's just a family phrase we use for bed time that is all.

Kids are 11 and 12 so understand what they need to do.

That scale can be wildly off kilt depending on the day and what happens. I really struggle and hit the rock bottom when accused of stuff, mainly because my bs shuts down and goes into child mode (parent adult child theory) and therefore makes it really hard to talk. When she isnt and she flings herself into a full blown attack where I cant do anything but sit quietly and say nothing I again struggle so would say I hit at a very low mark. If however we talk calmly and there arsnt these accusations being thrown around I according to her understand and she will sing my praises to all....but I really need to be able to work on my frustration and remain present for her which is just simply rather difficult to manage especially when I get told some of the stuff i get told.

Hellfire, believe me I really do see her point and I am not being defensive about that. I get how she would be upset and why she would be but this whole thing was simply not on my radar until she later told me I was lying.
In terms of the two phrases, obviously I wasnt going to say go upstairs mummy has stormed off...but the reality was she had gone off upstairs and that formed mu reasons for them to then go upstairs.

I'm not ignoring what you are saying as I 100% understand that but all I am saying is that I was not lying. Like I point out....in black and white things read only way and it makes it incredibly difficult to get my feelings and my point across

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[This message edited by Tinytim1980 at 12:53 PM, Friday, March 20th]

if she had turned to me at the time and said she was upset or hurt by it then I would naturally have told her not to be blooming silly

This is important. She shares her valid feelings..and you say you tell her "not to be so blooming silly," and that that is "naturally" how you would respond.

Her feelings aren't silly. It sounds as if you're dismissive and belittling of her feelings, on a regular basis.

With all due respect..she needs to stop posting as you. If she wants input, she needs to sign up,and post. I like to "know" who I responding to, as do most people here.

It's just a family phrase we use for bed time that is all.

Thanks for clarifying.

Kids are 11 and 12 so understand what they need to do.

So was this their normal bedtime? Your wife seemed surprised that they were in their rooms even 30 min after they had gone. So did you send them early?

That scale can be wildly off kilt depending on the day and what happens.

I’m asking for your grade about this particular incident. You need to start building a long uninterrupted string of high scores.

She has every right to not trust you, friend. You’ve talked before about anger issues, that surely isn’t going to help her rebuild trust. Is that getting better?

From what you describe, it sounds like you guys are trying to keep arguing thru complete emotional disregulation (talking over, anger and frustration). Do you guys take breaks to cool down? The opening post seems to suggest your wife did just that but then felt like she was attacked for doing the reasonable thing. And sorry, you aren’t going to convince me that your tone and body language was enough to make "stormed off upstairs" non-inflammatory.

Ok. You believe you didnt lie.

Then why didn't you tell her exactly what you said here? The show was over, she had left,so you told them to go upstairs. Why did you leave out the part about your telling them to go? She asked you where they went, then asked again, amd each time, you left out that you told them to go. Why?

You seem to be digging in your heels,insisting you didn't lie. Are you looking for validation on that? Or do you just don't see what you did wrong,and you're asking for help to understand why you actually did lie?

[This message edited by HellFire at 2:15 PM, Monday, July 8th]

I need to get my day going so I’m going to put a final thought down:

I leave room for a miscommunication here and what you said would not be what I personally would call a lie. There is too much vagueness in this crazy language you people exported to us

That said, your wife is upset and is trying to communicate that to you. Is there something you can learn from this to have better interactions going forward? Maybe you need to start using more words for a while to make sure your points are not misunderstood. I think you certainly need to choose your words better, this "storming" thing almost certainly raised the temperature for no good reason.

And finally, ask yourself honestly if you were concealing anything in your language and if so, own it and apologize. This isn’t a fully black and white question. You should be seeking to be very very transparent to your wife so that she can learn to trust you. Maybe this is showing you you need to dial that transparency up another notch.

Hf - british me saying blooming and then comforting her etc isnt minimising her feelings and i do get into a lot more detail than that....I don't just ignore them and fob her off.

In reference to digging in my heels, I am not attempting too. I recognise the inflammatory nature of the words and I recognise how it may come across but again for me it comes down to my intent I never intended to mislead her or come across as it being her fault. Her going upstairs was a key reason the kids went upstairs, of course I wasn't going to tell them that but it was still never the less a reason but one which I dont hold her responsible for.

I have no reason to lie about this, I am not proclaiming I am the best WS out there as I clearly am not but as I point out to her...what reason is there for me to lie about the kids going upstairs?!?! It just literally makes no sense to me. Do I get why she is upset, absolutely, can I see why she would feel guilty totally but did I mean for that to be the case no
That's where I am struggling, a lie is a concerted effort to conceal something....I havent done that

Ink,

It's around their usual lamptime, they both just head up and go about their usual evening routine of crochet and computer but then some.evenings we call them down and we will watch tv with them etc.

Yesterday I would still score low before she headed off when I found out that it was because I was perceived to have lied and that she was "never going to look at me, never going to speak to me" etc. I panicked and went into total bewilderment.

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[This message edited by Tinytim1980 at 12:53 PM, Friday, March 20th]

I'm not suggesting you should have told the kids part of the reason you told them to go,was because she went.

I'm asking why you chose to omit that,when your wife asked where they were.

Your intent may have been xxxxx..but you intentionally didn't tell her you sent them up. It was intentional..because you left that part out of your response,to her, twice.

Why?

I realize this may not be a ws thing. Maybe it's a difference in the way men and women communicate.

Tiny Tim, there’s going to come a time when your wife will stop asking you asking questions, won’t bother calling you out on your lies, manipulation, and obfuscation, and simply not care enough to fight with you anymore.

If or when that day comes, your marriage is over.

So instead of ruminating over how unfair it is that your wife never believes you, try to be grateful that she’s still emotionally engaged enough to argue with you.

And if her pain and mistrust— and the indefinite time frame that goes with it— is intolerable, then you can do yourselves both a favor, file for divorce, and give her a generous settlement.

Because to me it wasnt relevant as I literally wasnt having a dig at her.

As I have said, she had gone upstairs and their show had finished to me it was pretty cut and dry but I never intended and therefore considered just saying I sent em up.

To me, it was fairly obvious and clear and I felt last night this was just a smoke screen for something else. But irrespective as I highlighted I had said sorry which is just shit if something I had said came across that way as it was never my intent.

I don't even think it's a man or woman thing....she has previously told me off (in a jovial manner) because I always said WE rather than I...

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[This message edited by Tinytim1980 at 12:54 PM, Friday, March 20th]

Btb,

It's not that its intolerable albeit it has been frigging horrid at times and that's just for me..I know for her the pain is far worse and worse than what I am experiencing.

This isnt about whether or not its unfair or whether or not she should be xyz

This is more about a complete mess where she was refusing to speak to me because she believed I was lying about something that wasnt the case!

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[This message edited by Tinytim1980 at 12:54 PM, Friday, March 20th]

Tim, read BTB’s post five more times. She emphasizes this message often and she is 100% correct. She lived it, and so did I. No BS can live in a hyped up state for a prolonged time, it’s too exhausting. This ride will come to an end, the question is where will you be when it does?

My wife seemed to have the mindset that she would let me exhaust myself and then deal with me after. But in doing that she both proved to me that I couldn’t trust her and that I didn’t need her. If she wasn’t any good for helping me in my darkest moments, ones she was directly responsible for, then what place did she have in my life?

If you need help getting past what you perceive as the "unfair" reactions of your wife, think of it like this: you did awful things and got away with them scott free during your affair. Imagine these reactions from your wife as if they were happening in real time with your sins. Would they feel unfair to you then? If it helps your mental accounting, when your wife is reacting, match it up with some shit you have pulled and find the justice in this. Because even with her reactions, even if they are imperfect and unsustainable, she is the grace giver here, not you. You are going to burn her out if you don’t start building. Who knows, this very incident could be her last straw, and there isn’t a person on this forum that would blame her.

I assume because she posted the opening that she is reading this. We welcome you to come join the discussion. You would get much support and some great advice. I hope your healing is progressing well.

It was irrelevant to you that you told the kids to leave.

It wasn't irrelevant to say they left because she stormed out. Which, wasn't really the case. The show was over . They stayed until it was over. For another 30 minutes, or so,according to you.

She left. That was an action on her part. You told them to go. That was an action,on your part. But her action meant you could blame her. Your action took blame off of her.

I don't think it was malicious. I don't think you understand why you say the things you say. That's something to work on.

Look, you have lied for years, after dday. Your anger is still a problem. You say terribly hurtful things to her, then seem dumbfounded when she doesn't shrug it off. You SAY you understand her anger. But your anger, and defensiveness, show otherwise.

A BS needs the ENTIRE truth. Gently, you don't get to decide what is relevant truth, when speaking to a woman you have hid so much from. She wants all the truth, all the time. Seriously, if you eat a cheeseburger for lunch, amd she finds out it was a hamburger, that's going to trigger her. You must be diligent about telling the entire truth,all the time.

She asked a question. You left out a significant part of the answer. Intentional,or not. You were wrong.

Look at the title of this thread. You asked if you lied. Yes. You did. You omitted a big part of the truth. You asked if you were being manipulative. That's a more complicated answer. Maybe? Maybe it was completely unintentional. But, maybe, because you were "frustrated," and upset that she "stormed out", and the reason for the disagreement...maybe you subconsciously were trying to make her feel bad. That her being upset with you,for being "blooming silly," for abandoning you with the kids for a few minutes,while she pulled herself together,etc..Maybe you were trying to lash out at her. Don't automatically dismiss that. Really think about it. You might just realize you were wrong in this situation.

[This message edited by HellFire at 5:13 PM, Monday, July 8th]

When she then came downstairs about 30 minutes later, she asked me why have the kids gone upstairs. I said "their programme has finished and you stormed off upstairs". I wasnt pissy but I was upset and frustrated. She asked me again, why have the kids gone upstairs. Again I repeated "their programme has finished and you stormed off upstairs".

So what I did for a job was language analysis. Decades of this.

You specifically said two things, twice:

1. Program finished
2. BW stormed off

You had TWO opportunities to say that you had sent the kids upstairs.

You CHOSE not to say that, instead focusing on two different points, and stating something that you have now admitted was untrue, that BW did not "storm off".

From my own experience in analysis, I would say that you purposely chose this set of words in order to increase your spouse’s level of upset - NOT TO REDUCE IT.

Your words were specifically chosen because they frame her as angry and unreasonable.

Your words ALSO were chosen to eliminate YOUR OWN actions - that of telling the children to go upstairs - specifically because had you included those words you would have implicated yourself in the reason they were upstairs, and this would NOT have worked toward the actual purpose of your statements toward your BW, which were to make her feel upset and belittled for "storming off".

Besides lying, you’re also trying to minimize the fact that you are attempting to frame your wife’s behavior of walking away to try to calm herself as something negative and overdramatic. It isn’t. Even you admit she didn’t storm off.

So yes, you lied. You’re also lying about the fact that when she walked away, it bothered you - a lot. So much so that you chose to characterize it as "storming off", so you could try to justify another argument.

You would do well to take a moment and really own this.