SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

A wife that loved you and was invested in your marriage wouldn’t be saying that she can’t be who you need her to be. She would be doing everything that she could to be that person.

Honestly, I think this display of waterworks is her way of trying to either get you off her back and rugsweep, or file so she doesn’t have to be the bad guy.

HikingOut is right that some WSs take time to "get it"… but WBFA is also right when he says that they almost never do without consequences, usually with divorce being imminent.

There’s also the question of how much you’re willing to suffer and lose of yourself in your quest for her to "get it."

Scientist enough to recognize your recency and confirmation biases raging.

You do you, just don’t be shocked when others try to moderate the message.

This is not about mine or anyone's confirmation or regency biases though. And this is not really about lumping OP's situation in with others that occurred recently, although the patterns on here do indeed say A LOT and so I think we do have to mention them. This is instead about a good man the OP being SEVERELY MISTREATED by his WW. Do we inform him that he isn't going nearly far enough in standing up for himself or not. Especially since the one time he did go farther in standing up for himself, his WW actually seemed to be on the verge of waking up. For me the choice is clear.

I do agree that it seems like a generalizable pattern that a BS showing strength thru genuinely being ready to leave the relationship is a good thing. I couldn’t bring myself to do it for a long ass time and I do believe it contributed to my prolonged agony.

But that strength CAN also be paired with patience and acknowledgement that a betrayer will almost certainly not be able to change instantaneously. The BS should be strong and prepared to detach. But from there, the choice is up to the individual. Choose to stay? Cool. Choose to leave? More power to them. Let’s encourage them to that point and trust they will make the right decision for themselves from that place of strength.

I think people should keep on posting in the style they see fit. You have your style of posting. Cool. I have my style of posting and I am not changing. Also cool.

The choice is always up to the individual on what to do about their situation ultimately.

wjbrennan78

Often people take a lot of time for their thoughts to jell into concrete actions - so it appears with you and also a bit of hopium to cloud the thoughts.

I understand you wanting to "save the marriage" for the "sake of your children" Speaking from the point of one who grew up with both parents capable of giving alley cats lessons, I say BS to that thought. Like it or no, you are teaching your kids to accept disrespect of the worst kind.

Went back to an earlier post - you should go back over them and read again what folks have tried to impart to you and your thinking process. What folks are typing here is an accumulation of what they have learned after picking up a rock next to a big campfire.

From a May thread of yours:

HellIsNotHalfFull
Yeah no. There is no reason to have an affair. The relationship had problems? So does every single other relationship. There is no excuse. She felt detached, but did she ever tell you? Nope, she just chose to have an affair. That is the key word there. Choice. She decided to cheat and not tell you, her husband that she was.

HINHF - has a way of hitting the nail dead-center with a 24oz framing hammer

farsidejunky
If she is blaming you for her choice to let another man have her, she is...simply put...either not ready for reconciliation right now, or she is not reconciliation material at all.

Here is the rub, brother: you cannot even entertain this type of discourse. All it does is seek to validate the way she feels about her justification. In other words, your mere willingness to engage in the conversation will be subconsciously seen as a negotiation to her.

Next time you ask for a timeline and she begins to blame you, simply tell her this:

"If you truly believe your choice to screw another man is my fault, the single best thing I can do is set you free to find someone who will tolerate such fuckery."

Then walk away and go do something that pleases you. You cannot allow her to turn this into a negotiation.

Love yourself enough to refuse to tolerate the intolerable. Good luck.

If you look up farsidejunky's path you will find he paid dearly to get where he is now-

And you posted:
I know the meal wasn't for the OM. It is a end of the semester tradition, so that isn't a thought to me. They are employed at the same College, but their offices are across campus from each other. As far as alerting the OBS - I live in area where there are a lot of firearms. I'm afraid of having some crazy asshole shooting up the house or my place of business. Afraid of something happening to my kids. I don't care about pissing off my WS.

I suggest you not set up straw-man arguments to justify you not doing what needs to be done.

Which leads to your first post on this thread.
Ever hear of "Trying to drive a nail into a rock." ???!!

I think that is what you are attempting even though you may not realize so.

One of our guidelines reads:

ON TOPIC: Respect the original posters' intent and avoid threadjacking. Feel free to start new topics to discuss general subject matter in other threads, but do not refer to specific topics or threads outside of their original location.

Not Posting As Staff...

This is not about mine or anyone's confirmation or regency biases though.

You've stated a number of times that you focus only on BHs. You also seem not to see some posts that conflict with your world view. So yeah, confirmation bias is a pretty obvious issue.

You've stated a number of times that you focus only on BHs. You also seem not to see some posts that conflict with your world view. So yeah, confirmation bias is a pretty obvious issue.

Name one.

My posts are based on our friend the OP's *specific* situation going by his posts, and what my gut tells me. So, these are the facts that the OP himself presented here and in his other threads, and my observations, what I have seen about human nature over the years.

--His WW was for their entire marriage, and unappreciative wife who did not pull her weight around the house and didn't earn money. Our friend the OP seems to be an attentive husband and father who did all he could for both his wife and his family.

--Our friend, I am also sensing, in his kindness, may have trouble saying no sometimes. That doesn't necessarily make our friend the OP a wimp or a pushover or anything, but there have been times when it would have been better for him to have demonstrated a boundary. The people around him seem to have taken advantage of that, the OP's kindness. The OP working on his ability and willingness to say NO is, I believe, going to be a HUGE part of HIS own personal recovery and healing.

--Women (and men) often get married not because they are in love or they are wildly attracted but instead because of more pragmatic reasons--their primary partner checks all the boxes. And women (and men) very ofyen cheat simply because, well, they ARE just wildly attracted to their AP in a way that they are not to their spouse and whom they view the safe choice. An uncomfortable truth not talked about enough on SI in my opinion, but in light of the two above bullet points, something that I STRONGLY suspect is happening here.

--And many WW in particular want R because they know their prospects are pretty dim with D. A woman in her 40s whose marriage ended because she cheated, is *not* a prized commodity in the dating market. A lot of people on SI won't say it, but I will. Is it fair that women seem to be judged more harshly. That's not what this is about, it is instead about OP's WW's likely motives in R. I suspect that OP's WW gets all this on a fundamental level and that has to be a HUGE reason why WW wants R. NOT considering this as a possibility is simply NAIVE.

--Finally, attraction isn't a choice. All the therapy and journaling in the world will not fix that. Is WW actually attracted to our friend? It's looking grim. She couldn't even be present with him for that one drink!

--Last but not least, WW's efforts have been..subpar at best. "I can't be the person you need me to be right now" good grief. Do we even know for sure that WW is even out of her affair? Wasn't she caught talking to POSOM a couple of months ago, two months after DDay?

Anyway, yeah. This is why I am posting on this thread as I do.

--

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 6:16 PM, Sunday, August 4th]

I will name many by what you just posted:

Name one.

His was for their entire marriage, and unappreciative wife who did not pull her weight around the house and didn't earn money. Our friend the OP seems to be an attentive husband and father who did all he could for both his wife and his family.

Who likely allowed him to work when kids were sick, took care of all the family and house appointments, and likely did most of the domestic chores. There are many ways a stay at home partner make it easier for the other to focus more and advance in their career. And that is an indirect impact to the household finances.

--Our friend, I am also sensing, in his kindness, may have trouble saying no sometimes. That doesn't make OP a wimp or a pushover or anything, but there have been times when it would have been better for him to have demonstrated a boundary. The people around him seem to have taken advantage of that, the OP's kindness. The OP working on his ability and willingness to say NO is, I believe, going to be a HUGE part of HIS own personal recovery and healing.

I don’t disagree that if she in fact didn’t pull her weight in a way that was satisfactory for the OP that would be partially on him for not setting boundaries. I would agree that we need to hold our ground on things that are important to us. I hope OP can provide insight to these first two major assumptions.

-

-Women (and men) often get married not because they are in love or they are wildly attracted but instead because of more pragmatic reasons--their primary partner checks all the boxes. And women (and men) cheat simply because, well, they ARE just wildly attracted to their AP. An uncomfortable truth not talked about enough on SI in my opinion, but in light of the two above bullet points, something that I STRONGLY suspect is happening here.

I didn’t have an affair because I was wildly attracted to the AP. This is your own belief. I had an affair because it presented at a time when I was susceptible to escaping from my problems. I wanted to just pretend all was well with me - that I wasn’t depressed, disillusioned, I did it because I didn’t see a way to fix my problems. I just reverted back to an earlier time before the demands of life took over. People cheat to feel younger, like they still got it, to experience a passion they have failed to cultivate in a long term relationship because they didn’t put forth effort nor did they likely have the skills to do so. 9 times out of 10 a bs will tell you the ap was ugly. There is far more evidence in this site that there was more than physical attraction at play because the AP was as not attractive.

--And many WW in particular want R because they know their prospects are pretty dim with D. A woman in her 40s whose marriage ended because she cheated, is *not* a prized commodity in the dating market. A lot of people on SI won't say it, but I will. Is it fair that women seem to be judged more harshly. That's not what this is about, it is instead about OP's WW's likely motives in R. I suspect that OP's WW gets all this on a fundamental level and that has to be a HUGE reason why WW wants R. NOT considering this as a possibility is simply NAIVE.

This is ridiculous. I am about 50, if I wanted to get a divorce and date again I absolutely could with no problem. I don’t think you would find a single woman who said they reconciled because they didn’t think they could date or find someone else. That doesn’t even make sense in the context of they obviously found someone to cheat with pretty easily.

I don’t doubt that the bs and the ws often have similiar reasons for trying to reconcile. Kids, finances, it’s inconvenient to get a divorce, etc. But it doesn’t mean they can’t find better reasons along the way if work is completed towards self awareness and renewed commitment.

Has it ever occurred to you that the bs in most of these instances want to reconcile as much as the ws does? Or that their reasons may or may not include love at that moment in time? I mean it’s really hard to feel loving towards someone who just cheated on you and made a mockery of your life together.

People choose the path of reconciliation on both sides for a variety of reasons. What I find with couples who go have done it successfully is they found the path to having better relationship skills, and realizing love is always created a million ways throughout a successful marriage and they have to be part of that creating. The initial reasons to reconcile grow and change in these couples. And we have no way to predict with any scientific evidence which way it will go when a couple is early out.

Why? Because all ws are horrible in the early days. They just spent a lot of time cheating, deceiving, and being the worst possible version of themselves. That’s not going to just stop in the discovery process. I think if you had been here when I was first here and when my husband was briefly here you would have surmised there wasn’t a chance in hell. Not one chance because I was delusional, selfish, and said far worse than I can’t be who he needed me to be. In fact, that is just a common phrase ws use in early discovery. It’s not the first time I will hear it or the last.

--Finally, attraction isn't a choice. All the therapy and journaling in the world will not fix that. Is WW actually attracted to our friend? It's looking grim. She couldn't even be present with him for that one drink!

What people are attracted to varies greatly. It could be a sense of humor, intellect, it could be you are a leg man and they had nice legs. And the pool is smaller of who will have an affair. Fact: 90 percent or higher of affairs happen in the workplace. Why? Because they are convenient. AP’s are convenient people willing to be as bad as you are. Yeah there could be physical attraction, and in some cases I do not doubt that’s what gears it up.

But, It’s not like you can just say I am going to have an affair with that hot guy or gal over there? Why? Because a lot of times the most attractive people are the people you know who are good. Attraction doesn’t just mean looks because if that was the case most people on here would never had an affair because most of us are average looking or below!!!

Do I think the AP looked at me and thought- her - the one in mom jeans with thinning hair and stretch marks? Nah, that shit is all pretend. Why? Because he wanted what he wanted no matter where he could find it. You are delusional if you think people who have affairs are all attractive and irresistible. Maybe that was your experience. No idea.

-

-Last but not least, WW's efforts have been..subpar at best. "I can't be the person you need me to be right now" good grief. Do we even know for sure that WW is even out of her affair? Wasn't she caught talking to POSOM a couple of months ago, two months after DDay?

I do not remember, maybe the OP can illuminate if you have this correct or not. I think it’s a foregone conclusion no one should trust their ws this early on. That’s why we say if you think you might want to reconcile in the future, then insist on certain things (transparency, NC, the ws goes to therapy) AND that it’s crucial the bs detach from the ws and the outcome. In other words, be roommates for a while if you want. Focus only on what you need and want, and if they do seem to be getting what they have done and are working in themselves then you can start to consider if you want to try and build a marriage with them.

It takes 2-5 years to heal from infidelity. Both the ws and the bs. And that’s regardless of the marital outcome. If the bs thinks well, I want to give this some time because they want to keep their family together, because they don’t want to disrupt their finances, because they believe they are still capable of loving someone after this has happened, because they like how they make meatloaf, whatever the reason, why would you not say "okay, I see that’s what you want" but get your diucks ina row for any outcome? Draw up the divorce papers, hoard money if needed, go to therapy and work out things for yourself, spend time doing things you love, don’t focus on helping the ws but on making days as good as possible for you" and then let them take their natural course in getting to their own clarity?

The reason I say this is despite any thing anyone posts they will still need their own process to get to the outcome. Most people here are in a state of transition and just getting an immediate divorce does not satisfy that process. It can for some people but confirmation bias is based in the root of you have the one and only possible answer. It’s the closed mindedness that anything is possible on the other side of this. Some people are in very fulfilling marraiges here. Some people are moving towards divorce after going through a process towards an outcome they would have rather had. Don’t you think that had they not done that they would have been haunted by the "what ifs" because their preferences would have been to keep their family together?

Anyway, yeah. This is why I am posting on this thread as I do

.

And as you said everyone will post how they see fit. The op will sort through and find what resonates for him.

I understand a bit about confirmation bias. I don’t think that reconciliation is always possible or that it can have a great outcome for everyone. I don’t think that all females after forty think dating prospects are dim. I don’t think that all ws are irredeemable, nor do I think all bs are good people. I think there are lots of possibilities and none of them are predictable in the first 6-12 months after a bomb has been dropped in the marriage. You can always expect a traumatized ba who is grieving, and a ws who is at their lowest possible point in time that will take time to orient.

Cheating happens in good marriages as often as it does in bad. many who were happy with their marriage before the affair will hold out to see if things can get put back in order. Some that are in a bad marriage maybe more ready to leave because they have long since detached from their spouse. We have to give people time for their process and help them cope with it rather than demanding a specific outcome immediately.

So let’s support Brennan where he is and with what he is asking.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:10 PM, Sunday, August 4th]

Nothing will really change until the OP has the courage to inform the AP's wife and expose the relationship.

Until that time this is just more of the same and expecting different results.

Hardy- I am curious why you think it all hinges on that? Because it will blow up the affair?

I didn’t have an affair because I was wildly attracted to the AP. This is your own belief.

That was actually my point. The anatomy of every affair was different. My understanding from reading your posts on here, is that your marriage before your affair was quite quite different from that of our friend wjbrennan's. And yes the reasons for your affair were also quite different. (Forgive me, in my previous post I should have put in an 'often' (to modify it to something like 'people cheat *often* because..' instead of 'people cheat because').) Does the fact that there were a few years in yours or someone else's marriage where you were the one carrying extra load for your H or your family or even his side of the family because he needed you to, play a role in R? It probably does.

However, I am getting the *very strong sense* that for our friend, his WW never really respected him during their entire marriage up to this point and she may very well have never been attracted to him. There are marriages like that out there, and I get the sense this is how it was for our friend in his posts. And that she had an affair because well, she wanted to. And here they are, attempting R, WW for her own selfish reasons and our friend because WW is basically all he has ever known. I know that is harsh but it is an aspect that is impossible to ignore. I don't know how you'd soften the blow.

Has it ever occurred to you that the bs in most of these instances want to reconcile as much as the ws does?

Yeah. And I often view it as something to be overcome. In cases like this especially the BH is in what seems like an ABUSIVE relationship. My goal is to make him see that. I am working to make him WANT to leave. Because if he stays he will likely be settling for far *far* less of a life than he deserves.

I read somewhere that if you tether baby elephants to a pole, they will let themselves stay tethered even when they are fully grown and can easily break themselves free. I want to convince the OP to break free from the ropes and chains and walk out into the sunlight.

I read your post thoroughly and I am unswayed from my beliefs. I think this is how we will have to coexist on here.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 8:36 PM, Sunday, August 4th]

Hardy- I am curious why you think it all hinges on that? Because it will blow up the affair?

@HikingOut

I would consider it a crucible moment, the moment where the OP overcomes his fear and the truth of whatever the WW is as person and the nature of the adulterous relationship and marriage become clear. It will also be transformative moment where the OP must confront that truth and its implications. The future is at this moment unknown because the OP doesn't know what is really going on, or he does and wants to avoid it. How can he solve a problem if he does not even know what it is, or hides from it. Remember a solution does mean saving this marriage it means saving the OP from this infidelity. Example, if the WW sides against the OP, then he knows who she is and where she stands, oversimplified of course.

I have learned one thing in my life both personally and in business is that avoidance just delays the evitable and makes everything just so much more difficult. The value of clarity cannot be understated, only when you know what you are dealing with can you make sound and reasonable decisions.

And I would have expected nothing less, won’t be fooled.

As far as pointing at my affair you are conflating an explanation from a ws who is seven years out with a very different perspective after Dday. I wasn’t a good person, I did very bad things, I was very lost and clueless when I got here. And I missed the AP and said all the wrong things to my bs. By all rights I should be divorced right now.

All ws are abusive. Some are redeemable of they can shed some ego and choose that as a path. That redeem-ability does not require a specific marital outcome, it’s an individual one. Just like every bs has an individual journey regardless of the outcome.

I am not going to put myself in a position to defend brennan’s wife. I am not here for that. I don’t know if she is defendable or ever will be. Brennan didn’t come to a psychic site. He came to share experiences with others. I would contend when you throw their wives under the bus it puts them sometimes in a confusing position of defending them as means of defending themselves. It would be far more helpful to share your experiences with him as they relate to each other, rather than just making a further mockery of something they invested so much of their life in.

So, I am defending brennan’s right to take his time and follow his process. Because like you say all affairs are unique and honestly, this man hasn’t posted elaborately enough for any of us to have a full understanding of his pre a marriage, his wife’s capacity or desire for change moving forward, or any of the assertions being made here. We know he says they have been married for decades, and I am not certain how much of it was good versus bad because I have not seen him ever say.

We have met Brennan, and Brennan only. He presents as a good man, he isn’t dumb, he knows more about his situation and what he needs than anyone here. And I trust he will follow a process that will get him a good result. It will be on his terms and with careful consideration. So there is no reason for me to worry about your posts.

The only reason I even respond is the hope that something I might say may make your mind open enough to deal with whatever in your life you haven’t dealt with that created this quest to get every bh on here to immediately move towards divorce.

I am good if Brennan divorces or if he reconcile or he decides to stay in limbo to get enough money or the kids more raised or whatever his goals are, which none of us can claim to know. As long as Brennan is good, it doesn’t even matter what he decides to do about his ws. The goal is not the outcome of the marriage, the goal is that Brennan finds peace.

That’s a quest often is a bit more circuitous than you would like. And it keeps you coming across as insensitve to the very person you claim you want to help.

And you are unable to see it because that would require a circuitous journey inside yourself that is vulnerable and connecting to your soul. Your fear of that is what I see that comes across as trying to make other men skip that process too. So I wish you peace and know that you will always proceed how you wish, as will I.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:37 PM, Sunday, August 4th]

Thanks hardy, I will reflect a lot on that well thought out answer. I neither agree or disagree, it’s something I never thought about in that context. Mostly I advise it for blowing up the affair but I hadn’t considered the psychological benefits towards healing. My experience with my husbands AP’s bs was a mixed bag, but I can at least confirm that I am glad I did it.

You may be "Hardy" but you are certainly no "fool"!

I have learned one thing in my life both personally and in business is that avoidance just delays the evitable and makes everything just so much more difficult. The value of clarity cannot be understated, only when you know what you are dealing with can you make sound and reasonable decisions.

If I could get my WW to understand this concept, we would be in a much better place. She needs to stop being so avoidant so I can make sound and reasonable decisions. The clock is ticking and she will not like the where my decisions are trending based on the information (and her avoidance) I currently have. Maybe I can print this on a t-shirt and give it to her? Lord knows I’ve tried just about everything else to get this concept to sink in….

OP, I hope this resonates with you!

The only reason I even respond is the hope that something I might say may make your mind open enough to deal with whatever in your life you haven’t dealt with that created this quest to get every bh on here to immediately move towards divorce.

I don't like to disappoint, but it's even simpler than that.

We have seen, on SI and even more on the Wayward side, plenty of BHs who, immediately upon finding out about their WW's affair, leave and/or throw their WW out. (We see it more on the Wayward side is interesting in and of itself to me. It's like the BH's drastic action is what it took to shock the WW into action into posting. But I digress) Now, of course these BHs have to work through their grieving that will take a couple of YEARS. And in some instances while the D process is going on, the WW actually becomes the woman the BH saw in his mind's eye when he married her, and the BH calls off the D and decides to R with his now former-WW. Fantastic!

We tend to see a lot more here on the JFO/General side BHs who stuck in this sort of limbo in many instances for YEARS. They either seem to finally get divorced after a couple of years attempting R where they have been getting their heart broken again and again by their WW who doesn't get it. Or they stay stuck still years later with a WW who doesn't seem to respect them too much. It may be extremely understandable how they got there, but it is still, as far as I see it, a terrible outcome.

And then I suppose there are stories like yours where you and your husband reconciled through both of your affairs, staying together the entire time. Wonderful. Those seem much rarer though.

The general thinking from several posters on SI seems to be how it all takes time. I don't know how to reconcile that with the fact that, everything I am seeing is telling me that the BHs who take the stronger more decisive actions, have the better outcomes. And that these BHs are not unicorns by any means, going by all the frantic threads on the Wayward section. And the BHs who do not take strong action are the ones who end up in that limbo I mentioned 2 paragraphs above...or even worse it is their WW who pulls the plug and files for D. And so I post as I do, to push the BH towards actions which seem to lead to better outcomes for him.

With that said, I agree with you that the goal is for our friend the OP to get his peace.

I agree with @hardyfool post #33.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 1:01 AM, Monday, August 5th]

Hiking, you are somewhat of an anomaly. You are here to describe what your life was before/during/after an affair. I think it helps to get a good idea how the mind of one ws works.

This is where we all need to stop trying to push you, Brennan, into making a decision.

Reading here, and on other sites, it becomes very clear that ws are a very varied group. In fact it boggles my mind how many there are. On the other hand almost all bs are alike in being gutted by the pain of the A/As. Some of us, like me, rug sweep. Some come unglued. Some lash out. Some just cry. Some can’t make a decision. We stumble around worrying, terrified, feel abandoned and want the person who did this to fix it. Well, they can’t.

If you are living with a person whose selfishness rules their lives you need to be ready to move on. If you have a person who manages to grow up and really tries your relationship might make it. I think, Brennan, you, and only you, know if your wife will ever acknowledge what she has done to you. If she "gets" it and you are satisfied then there is hope. If she is emotionally unable to see your pain, understand your pain and feel genuine remorse then maybe moving on will not only give you some peace but get rid of all the physical complications that have arisen because of her behavior.

We need to let you find your way with encouragement but not by pushing.

The general thinking from several posters on SI seems to be how it all takes time. I don't know how to reconcile that with the fact that, everything I am seeing is telling me that the BHs who take the stronger more decisive actions, have the better outcomes. And that these BHs are not unicorns by any means, going by all the frantic threads on the Wayward section. And the BHs who do not take strong action are the ones who end up in that limbo I mentioned 2 paragraphs above...or even worse it is their WW who pulls the plug and files for D. And so I post as I do, to push the BH towards actions which seem to lead to better outcomes for him.

You are applying a generalization that is anything but scientific.

My non scientific observances are these:

1. Nothing the bs does will make a ws see what they really need to see. The ws change has to be desired by them and pursued because they don’t want to be that person. This is for lasting change. The easier way to see a ws is being inauthentic and abusive is the love bombing or manipulation to avoid accountability. Fixing the relationship is not working on themselves.

2. Most ws are avoidant. The panic you see in the ws is because they do not know how to respond. They want us to tell them what to do because it’s outside their scope of having skills to deal with. This is exactly why Brennan’s wife’s response was "I can’t be who you need me to be" because that is true. Right now she has no idea how to get there. Generally until the ws learns not to be avoidant (huge change that requires extensive work), then they will retreat when things get rough. Not saying the bs shouldn’t be angry or express, but one can expect the ws won’t know how to respond.

If they had these skills they would have fixed the relationship instead of bury themselves in distraction of the affair.

3. The pick me dance is the one thing I think a bs does that sometimes prolongs their process or pain. Because it does tell the ws they are in control and have power in the situation. I don’t see Brennan doing the pick me dance. He is detaching, trying to focus on himself and the kids, and waiting for her to catch up. His message here is "does this mean this is starting to happen" to which we unanimously say "no, not yet, watch longer stay detached and see what else she does" but he had paper drawn up for divorce (if I am remembering him right )he came here at the same time as another bh so I can’t swear that was him)

4. Again, when we throw the ws under the bus an often times at this stage it makes the bs defend them even if it’s just mentally and not here.

I think the bs who gets the best results is the one who focuses on themselves, what they need, protecting themself, and realizing they have little direct input into their ws response. The ones who do best are the ones who have arrived at the conclusion they can only control themselves and who lean into making their life more independent of the ws. They take time for their hobbies, their loved ones, nurturing themselves. They have firm boundaries surrounding the ws, and can be detached more than not.

Do ws change to save their marriage? Yeah, I think that can be a precipitous factor for some. A SAHM mom might know they need to get shot together or they won’t be able to support themselves or their kids, but the kind of change needed also has to have the selfish motivation of how do I not be this person anymore.

When my h and I were in the brink of divorce, I made as much money as him, and our children were raised. I don’t think my journey was about winning him back, but becoming the type of woman who wanted to and understood why and being a safe choice moving forward. My h walked a hard line but I don’t think that had anything to do with our reconciliation success.

He was being a hard ass with me, but wasn’t leaning into himself the way I am describing. So what happened? His avoidance helped him find his own escapism. So strength has to be both internal and external but the internal takes some time for most bs.

And it’s fine if you disagree, I really didn’t write this for you. I wrote it because I think there are a lot of perspectives that are antedoctal, including mine and I think it helps when we share our experiences and why we feel the way we do. I will still encourage you to dig in and try and do the same so it may seem like more than back seat driving or arm chair quarterbacking.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:03 PM, Monday, August 5th]

Why base your response to OP on a timeline of years in limbo? His d-day was less than 4 months ago.

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BHs who take the stronger more decisive actions, have the better outcomes....

I think you have a too narrow view of 'stronger, more decisive actions'.

You look for actions you can see. The 'strong, decisive action' - leaving, kicking WS out, immediately filing for D - that you and many other people admire is too often a reflex - and reflex is not decisive at all. It's just a mindless response to a stimulus.

I recommend that BSes make internal decisions, followed up by actions, to become/stay true to themself. IMO, what the BS needs to do to heal is to take control of their own life, figure out what they want, and make mindful choices of actions aimed at getting as much of what they want as possible.

A response of 'Hey! I'm in a whole new world that I never imagined, and I don't know what the fuck to do. I'm going to take some time, do my best to figure out what's real and what isn't, do some experimenting, and go forward based on the results' - that's a strong, decisive action, IMO, but it can look indecisive and 'weak', because it's impossible to know someone else's mind.

****

OP shows more than a little evidence that he takes responsibility for himself and is blazing his own trail. It's eminently possible that he's made mistakes. It's eminently possible he'll make mistakes in the future. But if he is taking responsibility and finding his own way, he'll heal, whether he Rs or Ds, or takes more time than some of us think is necessary.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:51 PM, Monday, August 5th]