SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Original post from two years ago: https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums/?tid=661660&HL=83979

Update: Camping Trip

I don’t even know where to start. Some of you may remember my first post from almost two years ago, when everything blew up and she ended up hospitalized. I thought I was past the worst of it, but this weekend I got hit with the same nightmare all over again.

We took the kids camping. It was supposed to be simple, just family time. Instead, I caught her on her phone, talking to some guy. When I asked who it was, she shut me out, ran off into the woods, and stayed gone for over an hour. The kids were crying, our youngest tried to chase after her, and I was left trying to calm them while packing everything up.

When she came back, she denied everything, spun a story that made no sense, and deleted whatever was on her phone. Once she saw I didn’t believe her, she turned on me — cold, cruel — then immediately switched gears and started acting all playful and "super mom" with the kids, which just made it worse.

I reached out to her therapist, my therapist, and her dad right away, because I honestly felt like I was watching the same script as last time. The kids were so confused. She told them nothing happened, that I was making it all up, and she shamed me for being upset in front of them.

We cut the trip short. On the drive home I even stopped at a beach to try to give the kids some kind of break. I begged her in private to just be honest with me, and she still lied, still insisted nothing happened, still had no explanation for why she ran away and wiped her phone.

The next morning, she went to work even though she was supposed to be off. When I said we needed to talk, she told me to "lay hands on her" and dared me to attack her. I didn’t. I just walked away.

The fallout hit right away — my daughter told her teacher she felt like a "1" on a 1–5 scale. The school reached out. She’s nine. She shouldn’t be carrying this. None of them should.

I feel broken. This wasn’t shock — it was déjà vu. I’ve been here before. I can’t believe I’m back here again

I am going to be blunt. You can’t believe you are "there" again so don’t be there anymore. You are letting a person wreck your children’s lives. You are suppose to protect them.

Whatever decision you need to make, make it. This is their one childhood and they carry it, good or bad, for the rest of their lives.

What can you tell us about her treatment and medication since the last incident?
Has she been attentive to her treatment and medication?

I wish it was simply as easy as just doing it.

I’m past the point of concern for the relationship. If I could move on today I would.

There are a number of factors stopping me from severing ties:

- I don’t think I could get full/primary custody and I know for sure that she wouldn’t be able to afford or maintain a separate household.
- My daughters would have to go back and forth and I’d be paying child support which is ludicrous
- She is mentally ill and it’s documented but she’s not done something heinous enough for a judge to grant me custody… yet.
- Financially I can’t survive without her income contributions. I’m barely making it month to month with two incomes. I carry all the debts and all the bills are in my name. Maybe in a few years after cars are paid off. Not sure, times are tough.
- Neither she nor I have any support system or stable parents or family members who could help facilitate this.

Ugh it’s so complicated.

Regarding he medicine she’s been very secretive and I believe she’s been skipping medication and lying to her therapist but I can’t prove it

Then downsize. Buy used cars. If your debt owns you figure out what you can divest. I get on my soapbox for a few things and childhoods is one of them. As a social worker I dealt with the emotional detritus of unhappy families. If your children are spending their emotional coinage on trying to feel safe, are trying to make sense of chaos you must take charge. If it is totally impossible to separate households then you must use the 180 or the more severe behavior called gray rocking. You become invisible. You let her go her way and you yours. No more policing her behaviors.

You can’t fix her. You can’t change her. Stop using your energy on a dead end. This is the tongue in cheek version of what I just wrote…insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different outcome. Do the best you can but be realistic. Be the sane one for your children.

So sorry this is happening. You need to get your ducks in a row. Why do you shoulder all the debt? You need to even things out and get set up so you can D if it comes to that. If she will not or cannot take care of her mental health you will need to protect your kids. Start getting your ducks lined up.

You can’t control her — just you.

Has she been secretive with her medications from when she came home 2 years ago? Or is this a more current behavior?

I know at the end of your last thread that she was still contacting people from in her group, which was a no-no. Did that behavior ever stop? Have you been, for lack of a better term, white-knuckling these last couple years, hoping to find some acceptable new norm?

Mental disease is extremely complex, and a major issue is the reluctance of the patient to adhere to a medical treatment, closely followed by the necessity of monitoring the effects of the treatment.
Like... you can reach a stage where two red pills and three green do the trick, only after 18 months they no longer work. You need to adjust to one red and four green.
This is well known with therapists and doctors.

You give us a lot of excuses as to why you can’t divorce. Something you had already done spiritually last time – albeit not secularly. I’m not going to tell you to divorce, but if you hide behind excuses to explain why you can’t do anything... well... all I can say is learn to live with your situation.

If that doesn’t sound appealing, and if you want a shot at saving your marriage then I suggest you contact her therapist and medical team and let them know what’s going on. I am 80% certain that she is either NOT taking her medication or it needs to be adjusted.

Yes you can monitor her treatment. If she gives permission for you to do so.

She admitted she’s been catfishing again. I don’t know if her dad convinced her to come clean, but she’s been talking to him most evenings and then finally admitted it to me. She claims it’s only been a few weeks and that nothing sexual happened, but I don’t believe it. She’s been off for months—combative, neglecting the kids, hygiene slipping.

She also admitted she skipped her psychiatrist appointment. It’s been five months since her last one, and she’s supposed to go every three months for refills. She swears she’s been "taking her meds" by digging through old leftover pills from past dosage changes, which basically means she’s mixing and matching her own cocktail. Maybe she is, maybe she isn’t, but either way it’s not good.

When she disappears into these online worlds, her real life just collapses. She’ll curl up in a blanket with her headphones on for hours, yelling at the kids to leave her alone. Hygiene goes downhill fast. If she does cook or do anything, she leaves a wave of mess behind—food out, containers open, things shoved in the wrong places.

I recently had to take a whole day off work to do her laundry. It was disgusting—dirty clothes and underwear stuffed into drawers, everything mixed together. I also cleaned out her car and had to excavate months of trash, old food, and packaging. I had even bought her a new car battery, and instead of installing it she left it rolling around in the trunk until the acid spilled and ruined the kids’ scooters, camping gear, and toys.

She’s still showing no remorse. It’s like teenager behavior—mad she’s being "forced" to stop her fun, while also refusing to admit she was really doing it. Her desk job gives her all the unsupervised time she needs to live in these fake worlds on her phone.

Here’s where I feel stuck: if I divorce her right now, the likely outcome is joint custody. That means my kids would spend half their time in this environment—chaotic, unhygienic, and unsafe. Financially, I’d also take a huge hit. Unless I had full custody, I’d be paying child support while losing time with my kids, knowing they’re living in neglect.

I don’t want to take my kids away from their mother. They love her and they need her to be OK. But she’s not OK. If I did have custody, I’d never block them from seeing her or staying with her when she was stable. What I need is to be the parent with the authority to say: "You don’t look good, the kids are staying with me," or "That guy you’re living with seems dangerous, the girls aren’t staying there." Right now, without custody, I don’t have that power.

That’s the rock and the hard place I’m caught between.

God help us

[This message edited by MilahsRealHusband at 3:38 PM, Wednesday, September 10th]

Anyway, she says she’s been taking her medicine in spite of not going to the doctor in 5 months, because she had old pills leftover from the many times that the dosages have been adjusted. I can’t prove it one way or another. If she has been taking pills, she’s been using old pills to make her own combination/dosages.

There is one constant. One known fact:

She lies...

Look – If you heard a big noise and when you look out your window you see your car wrapped around a streetlight you would not be debating if your wife hit the light or if the light assaulted the vehicle. You would make logical assumptions based on what you have in front of you.

So what do we have in front of you?

A wife with a diagnosed mental issue.

A wife with a history of lying.

The KNOWN problem with mental issues about patients adhering to treatment.

The known problem of the need to monitor and adjust dosage.

Behavior that is identical to the behavior last time she had a mental relapse.

Simply based on the above you can ASSUME that she hasn’t adhered to her medical routine.

I would make any wish or attempt to reconcile be 100% connected to medical accountability. This accountability can be:

1)She accepts and signs what is required so you have access to her doctor. The doctor can limit this to simple issues like her attendance, her schedule, her dosage and what you should be monitoring.

2)She let’s you know of her appointments and accepts that you (or another family member) escorts her to these appointments.

3)You handle her medicines. You monitor when she takes her morning pill, her evening pill... At the very least then you dispense her daily dosage and monitor that it’s been consumed over the day.

I am also going to suggest you stop stumbling over problems if this leads to divorce and realistically find a way that you can get out if she doesn’t comply.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:30 PM, Wednesday, September 10th]

Dear Bigger,

I edited my comment while you were commenting so your comment doesn’t really line up but I hear you and I don’t disagree.

I just don’t have the power to dictate all the rules and force her to adhere to them. She knows we are financially and domestically entangled and she knows that I can’t simply kick her out into the street.

She’s never going to let me dispense her medication or admit that she isn’t in control of her behaviors. That’s the issue.

I will email her therapist and call the psychiatrist to see if they will try to convince her to include me in her care but if she doesn’t sign the paperwork (she refused last time), they can’t legally include me.

Contracts and vows are pointless because she will sign and say anything and then when she goes off the deep end it’s all out the window. I can’t say: but.. but you signed a contract! Her mania doesn’t care.

Even when she was hospitalized for ten days the doctors would call me to get my side of the story but they couldn’t tell me anything about what she was saying.

She’s not remorseful so it’s not like she’s trying to get me back. She expects to live in my apartment coparent with me and do whatever she wants.

Honestly I feel like the only reason she’s going to therapy and and the psychiatrist is because she likes having attention and feeling like she’s being cared for.

Anyway, You are right. She lies and that’s the crux of it.

This time she has said some weird stuff like "lay your hands on me" and she even tried to slap me around a little. She grabbed my head and she was screaming in my ear when I was trying to talk to her in the couch. I felt like she might bite my ear off. I’m ashamed to admit it but I kind of wish she had actually bitten my ear off. I would gladly sacrifice an ear to be rid of her.

Last time she went off the deep end she was telling her boyfriend fantastic and untrue stories about her being a child bride and a victim of forced marriage and that I was some kind of controlling jerk who beats her. I have this documented and it’s all untrue. She was arrested for assaulting me when I tried to get her phone and search her devices.

It’s a mess

[This message edited by MilahsRealHusband at 3:50 PM, Wednesday, September 10th]

I am going to counter your claim that you are so totally financially entwined that you can’t get out.
People divorce all the time and they manage. They find solutions to custody and kids manage. Even thrive. Yes – there are changes in finances, living, roles, custody... but the process takes that all into account.

I am not saying you should divorce. What I am saying is that if you don’t accept that it’s possible then she has all the power to refuse to do anything to change the present situation.

OK – for a minute let’s assume you are correct: You are so financially entwined that there is no way to separate or divorce. There is no way you can make her adhere to a medical treatment. You are powerless to demand and implement changes.
What happens when she starts catfishing again?
She knows you can’t stop it because you are telling us there is no alternative for you.
What when catfishing isn’t enough and it turns directly physical?
She knows you can’t stop it because you are telling us there is no alternative for you.
What about when her erratic behaviors start impacting the kids?
She knows you can’t stop it because you are telling us there is no alternative for you.
What about when she visibly ignores her treatment?
She knows you can’t stop it because you are telling us there is no alternative for you.

Unchanged it’s not a question of if, but simply a question of time.

I just don’t have the power to dictate all the rules and force her to adhere to them. She knows we are financially and domestically entangled and she knows that I can’t simply kick her out into the street.
She’s never going to let me dispense her medication or admit that she isn’t in control of her behaviors. That’s the issue.

Yes you do.
You have the power to realize that you and your kids have two options:
Get her in-line with her treatment in the hope she recovers OR start the process of divorce.

She will comply when she realizes her options are two:
Continue her path to self-destruction ALONE or accept your conditional help.

Friend – I know I sound hard and harsh but truly look at this:
If you are telling me you can’t do ANYTHING then all you can do is accept your wife has affairs.
Does that sound good?

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:17 PM, Wednesday, September 10th]

Better,

No worries about harsh words. Tough love is needed sometimes.

I guess I’m just struggling with the reality of the choices I have to make.

You are absolutely right that she would probably have sex with other men if she had a chance while not medicated. The chances of it happening certainly increase with time. That said, she doesn’t look the way her catfishing pictures make her look and she has body issues in her mind.She would have to make some sacrifices and overcome social fears in order to throw herself at someone in real life. The more likely scenario would be her finding some guy online and then run away to meet him. God forbid she hooks up with someone online locally. Maybe she’s already been doing that, I wouldn’t know honestly.

The bottom line is this:

If I divorce legally with everything as it is, it very likely puts the children at risk, gives me less time with them, and knocks me back into the Stone Age financially.

I’m at a stage where as much as I would like to have a lover, I can easily sacrifice that desire to have time with my kids.

If the children were older we could stage a more formidable intervention.

I can greyrock all I want but she’s not the type to come begging for affection. She is the type to turn around and hurt me and the kids more out of spite. When we fight after she finally admits stuff she shows no remorse and no guilt. She adopts an "everything is ruined, so what’s the point of trying to make it better?" Attitude.

The problem comes when I tell her soak you need to leave and let me take care of the kids. She thinks she has a right to live with me and torture me indefinitely and she believes that I am obligated to let her have the children and support her financially.

Don’t gray rock. Be active. Proactive.
Talk to her dad. Maybe a major and extended family intervention is what is needed.

Look – This is a non-religious site and I don’t know what the vows and expectations are in a Muslim marriage, but I guess they are the same as in most other marriages. A commitment of fidelity and support – in sickness and in health.
Right now, your wife is ill.
She needs support.
Her illness, however, is of a kind where you can only offer so much.

I am 99% certain your father-in-law understands that. He will be grateful that you are willing to stand by his daughter despite the self-inflicted damage she is doing to her marriage. As a man and a husband he will recognize the impossibility of you standing inactive or powerless if she carries on.
Maybe his support and the support of the extended family is what might make her accept treatment.
Maybe her ignoring her extended family or her conscious decision to chose the excitement of her bipolar events will be what creates the support you need from her family to limit what damage she can do to the kids.

MRH - I'm so sorry about your situation. Sometimes we are just stuck and don't know what to do. I hope you've been talking to a lawyer, especially if you can find one who knows about these mental health situations. I have some sense of what you're dealing with as I grew up in a family with an alcoholic dad and mentally ill mom (schizophrenic). Periodically through my childhood she would have to be hospitalized in the state mental hospital for months at a time. I would usually go out to board because my father couldn't care for me and there was no other family. My mom was not a bad person, and she improved as she got older (but she was heavily medicated and took her meds religiously) but I had to do a lot of that household work of cleaning, fixing things, etc, that you now do, so I know what that's like. Few people can understand it unless they've been through and you often don't want to let people know because it's humiliating by contagion, like you are sick too for being with them.

You may have already talked to a lawyer and maybe you can't work it out, I understand. I don't have many suggestions here except you have to be honest with the kids' about mom's sickness - obviously don't discuss with mom around - take them out and have a frank discussion with them, about what's wrong (maybe not the cheating at this point, but other aspects of what's going on with here), what you've tried to do, how it's affecting them, and what they might do. You have to be open and honest and you and the kids have to talk on your own about What's Wrong With Mom. Because this can't be avoided, and they have to know this is not their fault at all, this is mental illness, we don't always know what to do with, and it's very hard to treat. Unfortunately we don't institutionalize people anymore, which is frankly, what I would recommend for your wife, as I think it often IS the best solution, but it's not often available. So be open with your kids, let them know they can always talk to you, don't involved your wife in these discussions, always let them know they are safe with you, and you'll listen and try to do what you can. If there are other family members (or close friends - often families with really mentally ill members don't have close friends because of sickness or the condition of the house, etc) maybe they can help with the care.

Divorce is almost always the best answer, but it's not always possible for the reasons you cite. I think you are correct in trying to maintain control and guardianship over your children - you don't want them to be stuck with her and I agree with that. Unlike my mother, who was a very sweet person who wouldn't hurt a fly, she just lived in unreality, your wife sounds pretty disagreeable and ornery, and that's not good for kids to experience on their own. Let them know you are always their ally, and they should be allies for each other and that mom is very sick, while she can't help it, it's a big burden for everyone. If they can get counseling on their own that you can provide, that might be good too as they probably have a lot of anger to handle. Anger, depression, sadness. But there's a shelf life here....kids do grow up and move away and hopefully will be able to make their own lives and it's not as far away as it seems. I think your main goal here is to provide them with the strength and listening and support so they can go on to have strong lives of their own.

You're going through one of the most difficult things a person can, not only caring for sickness, along with children, but serious mental illness. This is easy for me to say but I would tell you....do not take your wife's betrayal of you personally. She would do this to anyone. It's part of the illness, some forms of mental illness seem to include a strong sexual component. It might be hormonal, I don't know. If you can join any groups on line (because I know you have limited time) to give you support and information in dealing with mental illness especially bi-polar or whatever her diagnosis, that might be a great resource and comfort to you. As a Catholic we used to say, you're earning your crown in Heaven, and you really are.

For the record there’s no major distinction between Islam and most other religions in terms of expectation fidelity between and husband and wife. Excluding nuances related to the practice of polygyny which I don’t practice.

We do have rules about divorce. You can reconcile after a verbal divorce twice but after the third it’s final and the former spouses are not allowed to reconcile.

At this point, if we reconcile, we would have no more reconciliations left. There’s no way around it.

According to jurisprudence, she can’t marry again or have sex with a new husband for three months to rule out pregnancy, but something tells me she’d be willing to look past that rule if given the chance.

The sick part is that she walks around and acts like a very religious person. She knows I won’t tell anyone in our community what’s going on because it would be very embarrassing for me. She acts normal at work and everyone thinks there’s something wrong with me for being upset and tired all the time.

Technically, we should not be living in the same house together after a verbal divorce until a reconciliation occurs, but she has nowhere to go unless she quit her job and left town to live with her dad or a friend.

So we are just stuck at home with a pile of bills and obligations and two kids. I guess the most common way to describe the situation would be "separated and coparenting"

I'm so sorry about your situation. Sometimes we are just stuck and don't know what to do.

Dear BondJaneBond,

Thank you for sharing your experience and your advice. I read everything and appreciate your words.

Did you consult a lawyer in these two years? I feel like there's continually this handwave to how separation and divorce would be bad for the kids, and then like 99% of this and the last post leaves them to focus on WW and your adult relationship. But what about how, for years now, they have been in a household exposed to under-/un-treated mental illness, physical abuse, verbal abuse, emotional abuse, toxic behavior, and toxic relationship models with no reprieve? If she's so dependent on you, unable to manage on her own, and mentally unstable, how it is so sure it's impossible for you to get primary custody (again, the lawyer consult)? Sorry this is harsh but it feels like effectively nothing has been done to protect these kids.

I spoke with a known lawyer with a good reputation.

The consensus was exactly what I keep saying over and over.

He told me his fees and explained the process and then advised me to be very strategic saying:

"The judges in this county would give a crack head mother living in a homeless shelter joint custody as long as she has running water and a lock on her bedroom door"

"Unless you had pressed charges and got a restraining order, I can’t even get you temporary custody when we file"

"Even if you get an even split, you’re going to be paying her child support"

Online forums and Facebook groups for my area support what the lawyer was saying. So yea… I walked away and never went back.

Anyway, up until last weekend I thought we were trying to reconcile.

I’ve been dealing with all the other non sexual mental health stuff as and trying to be supportive. That’s why I’ve been taking days off work to clean her laundry and excavate the filth from her car. That’s why take the kids to all the extracurricular activities and doctors appointments and everything.

I’m lost and exhausted.