SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I have this question that is bit of a puzzle still.

Can a Wayward Partner truly change?

I know a Betrayed Partner can change, they are changed willingly or not, during the pain for the worst, but after it they can be changed to be much stronger than earlier.

I know this simply because I experienced on my own skin.

No more afraid of betrayal, no more afraid to fall, ready to walk out, detached from whomever violates your boundaries, fiercely independent, and at the same time more connected to all other people.

This last allowed me to observe things I was numb to before.

I am meeting a lot of people, and obviously a lot of these people are females. I was refractory to female attention when I was committed, now I spot it like a neon sign.

And I notice the fiercest "approachers" are the kind of girls and women who show all the red flags of a wayward partner: they are often in a relationship and they crave validation, knowing full well I am "in a relationship" as I am married to my WS and I do not advertise our situation.

So every time I meet those, I see they are trying to escalate it a bit further, they have not much trouble in betraying their man and becoming the "OW". That does not mean there is any encouragement, but it feels like there is a competition in "stealing some other woman's" man. The more I don't give a crap the more seems stimulating.

But I see how this things can happen, I even thought about provoking it further to see how they move into seeding an affair, I just can't do it because I feel repulsion even if I am no longer committed to my WS.

But I noticed enough similar behaviors to identify some patterns, here what I saw as the recipient from (alleged) potential cheaters:

- Starts with looks, smiles, distant but "aware of you"

- Casually they "orbit" around you and happen to keep bumping into you (especially when your partner is just enough out of reach in that moment)

- They find excuses to chat, skipping 'formalities' and going more into intimate subjects

- They find excuses to laugh, touch 'casually'

- In further encounter they remember things that happened earlier making it sound like "it's our thing"

- They give clues where they will be in the following days almost like you could 'casually meet alone'

- All is made in a way that is openly telling and at the same time maintaining "plausible deniability"

Okay this may sound like many regular encounters but there is the fact that very often there is both your and their partner around, and they intensify differently than what single girls / women do, and it looks somehow different than when a single girl is flirting with a single guy (meaning these women who 'targets' paired men).

I noticed on me, but few times I could notice the same behavior on other men.

It is subtle but feels 'different' than this kind of interactions between 2 single people.

It is like there is an extra level of excitement, transgression.

And it is fascinating, because I think this matches some observations I had about my WS.

What I speculate happens is something along these lines:

- These are usually people who crave external validation

- Getting validation from someone who is 'taken' seems and extra bonus instead of being creepy

- Initially little validation like 'being seen' is enough, but quickly they seem to need more

- The moment the validation gets suspended (they are not getting attention), they raise the stakes

- Is almost rushing to get more 'intimate' (not overtly yet, but is like speeding up, the more you 'pull away' the faster this gets from looks, to talks, to touch)

- Feels a bit like an addiction to a very short lived drug hit -> they light up, fades, then they need more, then more frequently, then escalation.

- Encountering the other person's boundaries feels like a challenge to escalate more than a dissuasion

I observed this in multiple encounters at social meetings and sometimes even in the same day.

Does this resonate somehow?

I am thinking there might be something at play that works like addiction:

- You get a nice hit, it calms you feels good.

- Instead of dropping it because is inappropriate you find it stimulating in a certain way

- You need more

- You build tolerance fast, just a look or a distant smile does not do it, you need to get closer

- You are probably violating some boundaries, whether your relationship's or the other person's ones.

- You somehow cross those boundaries because "they are nothing so bad yet", you just like to interact with this person

- Discomfort visible in body language at first, then more acclimatizing to the boundary crossed, it becomes 'natural'

- Escalation to create a connection ( from chat to more intimate talks, to physical touch etc) feels like crossing other boundaries, but it gets ever easier, so they fall one by one.

- Push back to the connection (polite, not overtly angered) is just a temporary set back, next time or next change here they are back with more 'positive energy'

- Escalation probably starts to become a need, the fact that is wrong, makes it exciting

I am thinking this is hijacking these people (women in this case) moral compass, creating some neural pathways like addiction.

Basically is like when you allow yourself to do something 'forbidden' like taking an extra candy without your mom's permission, the next time you will not feel guilty, and maybe take 2, or a cookie.

Transgression you allow yourself becomes addictive, especially if you risk being caught because 'mom' is in the room with the other 'mom' (meaning their and the other person's partner).

If this is the case, I wonder if this is the process that changes your neuroplasticity to accept things that "I would never do" and if fed enough will lead to cheating (or becoming an AP, I do not yet know which is worse, I think both are similar in some twisted way).

Because if that is the case, it gives a logical explanation how boundaries get eroded little by little (sometimes fast) and each thing you always thought you would never allow yourself to do 'to be faithful' (wayward partner) or to be 'decent' (AP - OM/OW).

Each escalation makes the next one looks less 'inappropriate' the fact that you already allowed you to cross the previous boundary makes the next one crossing looks less dirty, just natural progression.

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Is this something that you notice in yourself?

I know I noticed this progression in my wife, it was gradual, subtle at first, but there were situations when at some point in time she allowed herself to "look back" (no matter if she did not like the guy, she enjoyed feeling attractive), then I noticed I caught her doing this more often, like a 'challenge' to those guys. Then she allowed to be approached and talk. Then she allowed to be flirted with. The I caught her flirting. Then of course I caught her cheating.

It was not "all at once, unexpected" it was a slow progression in her. I am seeing this into this women too.

And it is not pleasant to be on the receiving end, it is a bit unsettling to see. Feels different that just the random girl that gives you a few looks and a smile but drops it at that if you do not pursue, feels like they want to pursue and be pursued, not because there is whatever chemistry at play, but more of a driver is because it is "forbidden".

It is unpleasant because if this resonates, then we are speaking of neuroplasticity at play here. Meaning rewiring your brain to allow cheating and betrayal.

Once we do that to ourself it is very difficult to erase this from yourself. You change from "being incapable" of doing something that is wrong to "being used to do it" (we have this in many things we learn in life), so if this thing we rewired our brain into is "wrong/ bad/ toxic" our system cares nothing about it, it will just respond to the situation.

Meaning you can "suppress the urge" but if the condition for this pathway to activate verify, our system will respond to it exactly as we learned.

In this case, cheating/ adultery.

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It's a speculation from my personal observations, but I can see it consistently enough to make me wonder:

Do you see something that reflects what happened to you in here?

If this is the case, do you truly think a wayward Partner CAN change?

And the most pressing question I am interested to is:

is it possible to eradicate this from you and change this acquired behavior? Did you manage to do it or you are suppressing an 'urge'? If you could change, what is the critical step to succeed?

p.S:

- I noticed this because they are social gathering where we go as couples, so I can see who is paired and I am obviously "paired" so I can spot the red flag immediately

- The most I observed are girls because they are hitting on me, so I have the chance to see it up close, but I noticed men doing exactly the same things. This does not look like a gender thing.

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 7:22 PM, Saturday, February 7th]

Neuroplasticity goes both ways. Let's say they develop a positive feedback loop that causes a dopamine rush, that then gradually escalates into more transgressive behavior because the rush the same event will diminish over time. If that's the case, the opposite can happen with a negative feedback loop. If there's sufficient pain caused by this behavior and enough repetition of this pain, they will learn to avoid doing it.

This is why, in the parlance of addiction, people talk about having to hit "rock bottom" before they get help. The pain point has to be severe enough *and* permanent/repetitive enough that it breaks the positive circuit and in its place forms a negative circuit.

The other way to change would be a drug (or gene therapy) that blocks the dopamine from getting released by the behavior. This is opiate blockers help people overcome addiction. I don't know of a way to accomplish this for behavioral addictions, however, a situation that forces the WS to go fully no contact would likely "detox" them after a while, e.g. a heterosexual man joining a remote monastery (or a hetero woman going to a distant convent).

Typically, I think most WSes end up as "dry drunks" - they stop the cheating, but they have rewired the brain circuits that led to cheat in the first place.

I had a lot of conversations with my WS about this. He eventually got himself diagnosed with ADHD, which results from dopamine deficiency. All his life, he has looked for things to make himself feel happy, and then for a while he will compulsively spend time and money on whatever his current "obsession" is (hyperfocus, in ADHD terms) because it boosts dopamine. In my analysis, his cheating was another manifestation of this (he often described his LTA as an addiction), and I could no longer see his behavior as harmless, even in other contexts.

Can he change? I honestly don't know. If there's a genetic reason for reduced dopamine, and further biology that impels him to seek out dopamine-producing behaviors, then maybe he genuinely can't help himself. In which case, I'd argue that the best he can do is not commit to long-term monogamous relationships. That said, ADHD meds seem to help some people rewire their brains/behavior, so perhaps with the right treatment, external motivation, and counseling, he could break the cycle.

There's so much we don't yet understand about the brain (I studied neuroscience in college), and human biology in general is so varied, that I hesitate to make any absolute statements in response to your questions.

I thought as much, neuroplasticity can work with an opposite feedback loop. Suffering the consequences can be painful enough to compensate the pleasurable feedback loop, thus "teaching" the brain that cheating is not worthy.

That, though paints a very bleak scenario for R.

I can understand that you can suppress the urges of dopamine driven learned behaviors, however you will be always at the risk of "situational compulsion": if the stars align just right, then temptation will be there. Always.

It can put you at risk of a relapse, cheating in this case.

But cheating is the last behavior in a long chain, it is the most destructive, but there are many intermediate steps of validation seeking and boundary crossing before you get there.

I saw here wayward partners who truly feel like reformed.

I believe the cheating must have caused them consequences that are painful enough to seek a change.

The Betrayed Partner change for the same mechanism: because the very same pain, is a feedback loop that create pathways to protect you from that pain. So we do become stronger (that or collapsing, learning a different pathway. if you do not heal that's where you are headed). It's a coin toss, but healing is likely with help and therapy.

It feels the wayward partner has a harder healing process here: their pathway was "pleasure driven" so the change is to remove that, not the pain pathway.

How do you do such thing? Is it possible? Did you succeed or made progress in it?

I'm the BS so this is just my opinion. I do think people can change and the change(s) might be permanent but there's is no way to know if the change(s) will last forever.

Up till discovering my wife's affair I thought she was a dedicated and honest spouse. Boy was I wrong. Never thought she could ever be so clever/deceptive. She has always seemed so simple/grounded/down to earth/dedicated but now I know she is capable of deception. She has a bad memory BUT always remembered to delete her sexting history on her phone just before leaving work. Had she realized her phone and tablet were synced she would have unsynced them and I probably would have never discovered her affair. I have no doubts that it would have escalated and once the kids were out of the HS for summer break and there was only a skeleton crew in the building something physical would have happened. She swears she never :/ would have let it become physical and would get upset when I would say, "Six months ago if someone asked you if you would ever F around on your husband your answer would have been no but you did so forgive me for doubting you."

She saw the pain and destruction her affair caused and I'm sure she recognizes that I do not give the same level of effort I used to in the relationship. Quite often (a hell of a lot more often than she) I would do something to surprise her, to show my love, to make her smile. I would get up early to clear the snow/ice from her car or she might find a flower on her dash. One time I got up in the middle of the night and used this water based paint to draw hearts on all of her car windows.

I thought all of these little unasked for tokens of my love would keep our relationship safe but it had the opposite effect. I became the steady dependable reliable trustworthy hard working dedicated (boring) husband. She saw no challenge from me and that made me boring. Now, the married younger coworker who flirted w/ all of the women and carried a gun/bad/vest, now HE was exciting/fun. So from 7a till 3p she was this fun/flirty/vivacious woman who was able to sext w/ this guy during the work day (when she took this job she made it clear that she would NOT be able to do this with me and I understood :/) and from 3p till 7a she was my "loving" wife. She had the best of both worlds, he gave her excitement, I gave her safety/security.

Do I think she has permanently changed and will never go down this road again? Yes. Do I think she could? Absolutely. I will never again truly believe she would not be able to lie to my face. The first lie is the hardest, it gets easier from there. This realization keeps part of me withdrawn from the relationship. I will never again put my whole heart into a relationship w/ her or someone else.

We have boundaries in place to keep her from spending time w/ another male in a social setting. No more going out w/ coworkers in a mixed setting. If she is out w/ female coworkers and male coworkers just "happen" to show up then she leaves or calls me to join and if I cannot then she leaves. I'm not naive, she could keep quiet if it happens, but she understands that if I ever find out we are done, no second changes, no explanations, no excuses, I file for divorce. I told her if a male coworker starts hanging out in her office then she tells me and tells him to stop, only stop by for business. No communicating w/ male coworkers outside of work, no need to do so, and absolutely NO communication via cell phone. They can use the school's email system.

She realizes the depth of the pain and destruction her selfish choices have caused and I think that will keep her from ever chancing another affair but people are selfish and there are no guarantees in a relationship. Were I to find out she was chatting w/ another guy, no matter how innocent, I will file for divorce. I'm not going back down that black hole of constantly wondering what she is doing, it's just not worth it. I made peace a while ago with the idea of being single and I'm good with it.

Yes people can change. If they want to.

I like the observations of how "things" get started. Spot on.

Yes, people can change. It happens all the time. Most of us aren't the same person we were 10, 20, xx years ago.

But here is my question about change--Did your partner have to 'change' to even become a wayward partner? Mine surely did. She wasn't a 'wayward in the making' for her entire life until she finally cheated. She was more committed to our relationship than I was....until she wasn't. Obviously her boundaries changed somewhere along the way. Now they are rigid again. I have often read on here that many of our moral boundaries....BS's included....are not really known until they are tested. I can say that I have never cheated in any of my relationships, but I HAVE cheated in my dreams many times when I have been given the chance. Why is that? During my dream, I believe that I am in reality, yet I choose poorly. I'm not big into dream interpretation, but I will say that I am pretty disappointed in myself when I wake up.

I would say that I had a great girlfriend/fiancé for 5 years, a great wife and mother for about 15 years, a horrible wife and mother for 3-4 years, and average wife for a few years, and a currently great wife for the last 5-10 years. She is a compilation of her history, good and bad. But she changed from one to the other. Her good and bad don't cancel one another, they just add to the story.

My wife is also a recovering alcoholic. She's been sober for over 20 years, but will obviously always refer to herself as an alcoholic. It comes with the territory, because self-awareness is critical. Would she always refer to herself as a cheater? I never asked, but I wouldn't be surprised if she said yes. She will always want to be on alert to not make the same poor changes again.

Or so I hope

Did your partner have to 'change' to even become a wayward partner? Mine surely did.

She did, she was very shy and unsure.
I gave her confidence.

She was both proud and jealous of my appearance, she liked to be envied by other girls, but she also wanted eyes on her.
It did not matter I only had eyes for her. It did not matter she was the most beautiful (and the best in everything) girl in the world for me.

It did not matter if the guys who hit on her were regular or downright mediocre, the validation they were giving her was addicting.

So step by step, year by year, she crossed ever more boundaries until adultery happened, with a fat, greasy, ugly rat.
Think it was exciting for her just until she dumped me and broke my heart and soul, immediately after the OM became dull and boring and she questioned wtf she just did.

It lasted 6-7 weeks then she was trying to get back to me.

But then started again, because she consolidated those patterns, so to cross those boundaries was no longer hard, it was natural.

Little by little, she changed from the girl next door you can fall in love with forever to.... I don't even have a word for that.

And now she is immersing into try to change herself, she feels disgusted, she may start to understand the pain she caused and now that I do not feel it anymore, she suffers.

But I want to know if a Wayward can truly heal and remove those patterns, not just suppress them but erase them, or she just rewired herself to be a cheater for life no matter how disgusting feels, the dopamine pathway was created and will stay.

I want to understand that, no matter what I will decide one day, to stay or replace her with a better woman, one without a sordid history, I must understand if this corruption of your moral compass is permanent or reversible.

I know the changes on me are irreversible, for the better. The idea the same is for the WS is crushing

You pose some very interesting questions and I hope the answers you receive help unravel the mystery of "the missing moral compass" you mention. Many could go deep into theological theories about these kinds of questions, but limiting the question to the convenient model of "rewiring the brain" is likely to be an oversimplified concept, considering the variety of people's moral developmental levels. (Check out "Kohlberg's stages of moral development" for a humanistic analysis of this topic.)

Also, as a BS you may yourself be presenting differently in social settings than when you "only had eyes for her," thus sending these predatory females no "stop sign" to their subtle moves? Part of my own "recovery" from betrayal has been a shift to seeing myself as an individual again, and not just as Mrs. Betrayed Wife. I think people, men and women both, do pick up on these differences.