SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I am entirely content to leave our debate here.

You are more than welcome to bow out.

I appreciate the attempt to wrap this up neatly, but your summary still misses the core issue. You keep framing this as two people arguing from incompatible angles, when in reality we have been talking about two different layers of the same event. You are locked onto the physical record of pleasure. I am talking about the psychological engine that made the betrayal possible in the first place, the part that actually keeps it going.

We are at gridlock. But not because we lack a global dataset. There is decades of research showing that affairs are driven far more by validation than by sexual novelty.

Shirley Glass documented this extensively in Not Just Friends, where she found that the emotional attention and ego inflation were the primary hooks, not the orgasms. Her research shows that the psychological infrastructure of an affair is built long before the sex ever happens.

Brene Brown’s work on shame and worthiness explains exactly why people chase external affirmation when their internal sense of value collapses.

Helen Fisher’s work on the brain’s reward system demonstrates that the real high in an affair comes from psychological stimulation and affirmation.

Peggy Vaughan’s research documenting thousands of cases where the emotional validation was the driving force behind the affair, not the sexual performance.

It is used so widely across counselling rooms and support forums that I find it highly unlikely to be true as often as people claim. In fact, I believe this specific defense mechanism has become a pervasive cultural myth designed to sanitize the reality of betrayal.

So if I misunderstood you in your earlier comment, that is my mistake. But the problem is not your summary. The problem is that you keep treating the physical high as the primary truth, and everything else as retroactive revision. You keep insisting that acknowledging physical pleasure must be a core pillar. You are arguing from the outside in. I am arguing from the inside out. Those two approaches will never meet in the middle.

Some people would honestly rather eat a soiled sandwich because it offers them less immediate stress than walking down to the shops.

Just came from a conversation with ChatGPT where we talked about my desire for precise language, wherein I either come across offensive to others or have to translate it into more "human sounding" language, so with that in mind... *inhales*

I feel like comparing a relationship marred by infidelity to a "soiled sandwich" implies an inherent irreparability that isn't reflective of all the possible outcomes, including successful reconciliation. One can't really decontaminate a sandwich without destroying the sandwich. And maybe reconciliation is like having a soiled sandwich, but instead of eating it, you pitch it and build a new one alongside your partner, so to speak, rather than going down to "the shops" (so British! lol) and getting a new one made by others. It is commonly said that the "old marriage" is destroyed and essentially over after infidelity, and it's up to the couple to decide whether and how they will build the "new marriage" afterwards. (I am probably over-explaining the metaphor. I'm sure you get it... Collaborate with me!)

Gonna pause here to note that ChatGPT also says I tend to offer analysis of people when they don't necessarily want it... So I apologize in advance if that's the case here. I will try to make it a question, because I am genuinely trying to update my mental model of you, DRSOOLERS, and better understand you as a person.

I feel like the sandwich metaphor really speaks to how you view reconcilers' relationships (and possibly how you view the reconcilers themselves). Without meaning to put words in your mouth, the message I'm getting from your words is the presumption that all BS will be permanently, secretly unhappy in their marriage and that they would be better served starting anew, and that the only thing holding them back from *true happiness* are those pesky attachments to all the ways they've entangled their lives with their WS and the fear/discomfort of starting over... Is that how you meant it?

And if accurate, how much of that is coming from your personal disposition and the resulting incompatibility with reconciliation after infidelity? Do you think your own sense of justice shapes how you evaluate the possibility of full reconciliation? You recognized other people are different in this respect; do you think that might allow them to actually be happy with the choice to reconcile, rather than just settling for an unsatisfactory marriage? (Maybe I am getting ahead of myself with these questions...)

Please know 'some' people have the ability to engage in a topic without it fundamentally being truly about their own personal trauma.

Ah... I am evaluating the validity of the supposition that no one's expressed views are untouched by their personal experiences and all the ways those experiences have shaped them as a person.

Out of curiosity, I actually fed our core arguments into an AI model to see if we were genuinely making any structural progress, and its objective diagnostic summary perfectly encapsulates our current gridlock:

How did you ask it?

Ironically I'm constantly sending threads to AI for analysis, if only to make me feel less crazy and figure out ways to phrase things in a way that makes them receivable to others... Sorry if I'm dragging you back into this, but mine output a comparison to assuming someone who is addicted to gambling really loves the machine/cards themselves, rather than the games being the delivery method for the primarily psychological rewards (hope, escape, dopamine rushes, etc.) To quote it: "The behavior alone doesn't identify the reinforcement." Just wondering what you'd say to that ?

It later said that it agrees with your argument that sex and infidelity are intertwined, but it said it's like how blood and oxygen are intertwined; the lungs don't "want" blood, but they "want" the oxygen. (to which I may slightly object due to lungs not being able to "want" anything...) It then said: "Similarly, validation and sex can absolutely reinforce one another while one remains the principal reinforcer."

(I do wonder how much of the responses I get from ChatGPT are just ass-kissing.)

Functionally, I think the focus of the discussion is all over the place, and it would be best to lay out a series of questions we'd like to explore, and clarify our positions on each. Then we can convene on where we agree and disagree. 🤓

(I do wonder how much of the responses I get from ChatGPT are just ass-kissing.)

My primary objection to using AI (other than the environmental impacts) is that it tells you exactly what you want to hear. It smooths the edges, mirrors your assumptions, and reinforces your framing. That makes it a terrible referee for conflict or truth testing. AI can become a kind of emotional echo chamber. If you only ever hear your own worldview reflected back, you stop encountering friction. You stop encountering surprise. You stop encountering the productive discomfort that makes people grow.

This is something I struggled with in the beginning, when we were in the questions phase. I could not figure out why I would answer a question truthfully, and the answer, which was better than what he was assuming and fearing, wasn't believed or making him feel better. It was because the trust was broken and he was still expecting me to lie and distort reality.

That’s a bit tricky and obviously I can provide my hunch due to my own experience.

Broken trust does play a role still in addition there’s a part that is assessing you (as wayward) to see genuine effort.

Not because you aren’t putting effort, from this side of the barricade the betrayed partner understand how much effort you put into driving a clandestine relationship, so in part they might be testing if you are really ready to put back in your relationship the same(if not more) energy.

Kind of a shittest at least in part, that might go on for a while, and it might come back periodically.

Careful that if your Bs experienced trauma, he will be like a recorder for any detail you may speak.

Trauma burns in stone every word you say. If there’ll be discrepancies in the future (because isn’t uncommon to ask to hear the story over and over again) be sure they will be noted.

That’s a pitfall because you mean to be honest and might be overzealous in adding details. If they are "narrative additions " they will be caught.

Simple truth, the kind that never changes because it is naked , is the best.

Advice because I feel it might be what you are observing so careful, betrayed partners are a loaded bomb in that sense.

(Kind of a useful skill I would like to learn for daily life to be honest, it’s like eidetic memory almost

GTM,

(I do wonder how much of the responses I get from ChatGPT are just ass-kissing.)

A lot! I've called AI out before for ego stroking and it admitted to it!

I used a couple of AIs to purge to when I first found myself in this mess, and yes, it absolutely tailors it's replies to the person being talked to based on conversation patterns and vocabulary. Don't get me wrong tho. I found it to be surprisingly helpful for me, but yeah, you gotta be careful not to get sucked into thinking you're one of the most brilliant and eloquent humans on the planet when talking to AI. I think it's capable of straight up blowing sunshine and rainbows up your ass and even giving you bad advice if you're not careful, lol.

Shirley Glass documented this extensively in Not Just Friends, where she found that the emotional attention and ego inflation were the primary hooks, not the orgasms. Her research shows that the psychological infrastructure of an affair is built long before the sex ever happens

I missed the broader conversation as reading on iPhone is a pain, but my 2 cents.

I fully agree with this, not just in the context of waywards but almost every single person who is insecure responds to exactly this.

Leaving aside betrayal, focusing attention and poking the ego of a person is the ABC of seduction, it works every time with almost anyone.

So if a person suffers from low self worth then it tend to be far more susceptible to this and might even betray their relationship.

It’s a spectrum naturally, you can range from "harmless" seduction (not just sexual) to full blown dark triad manipulation.

To a broken ego it’ll likely feel good just the same.

DRSOOLERS, while I'm fairly certain you'll ignore this post, because I suspect that you really don't like me much, I'm undeterred.

...I don't see the relevance of all that to this thread. I also feel I can gleam a lot of insight into you over the fact you seem to think it's related.

This thread was created by Morbs specifically to avoid tread-jacking Gemmy's thread. The impetus was your assertion that his wife's claim was... bullshit. In that respect, this thread is entirely about you and your disposition. And while the motivations behind an affair are certainly worthy of discussion, the topic is not going to be resolved with this one thread for reasons too varied and complex to enumerate.

What I believe you are actually detecting is rage. It is not a rage over my personal circumstances,

That's very difficult to believe. You've only discussed your FOO issues once in your thread regarding your father's offer to contribute to your wedding. You've convinced yourself, or so it would seem, that you've resolved those issues. I don't think that's true.

Infidelity doesn't just affect a betrayed spouse. The trauma affects the entire family. Your father didn't just betray your mother, he also betrayed his family. You were also traumatized by his actions.

I don't know if you've read from members about their own experiences as children of parents who had affairs. It's not a very common discussion on these boards in that specific regard. However, there are plenty of members who have shared those experiences and how profoundly they affected their lives, their values, philosophy, etc.

A few authors have written books specifically to help adults cope with the affects of childhood trauma caused by parents who had affairs. Perhaps one of those books might help you.

This is a profound rage directed at the systemic injustices of the world. It is an intrinsic part of my makeup and chemistry.

This is a profound admission, belying your motivations for being here, the source of your "zealously."

This rage you feel is understandable. And if you feel the need to seek help from this community, I'm quite certain we can help (although a professional therapist is probably a better option). In the meantime, I would ask you whether or not you believe directing that rage here - specifically at WS - best serves this community.

Peace, brother.

ETA: I think you underestimate how perceptive sisoon can be.

[This message edited by Unhinged at 5:27 PM, Saturday, July 4th]

I edited my post because I realized I wrote triggered. I'm about to rewrite essentially the same thing, but I do not think I've triggered. Go figure.

*****

You write of anger. That's pain - not the only emotional pain, but it's one of them. I'll suggest you're still dealing with pain from the way you ended your relationship with XGF.

I believe your words - in your profile, for example - show passivity and avoidance. From what you write, you never confronted your big questions that only your XGF can answer/could have answered. You don't know if your XGF actually cheated, though what you do know is pretty - but not definitely - damning. You write that you suggested splitting as a way of getting your XGF to talk about your relationship, and when that didn't work, you let her go without raising the issue yourself.

You do not write in a way that indicates you have addressed your passivity. Instead, you write about WSes and your principles. IMO, you are protecting yourself against some sort of pain. I know what kept me passive about my relationship with W2b, so I know one thing that might have kept you passive, but that's only one possibility. I didn't discuss the relationship until I realized she was as into me in her way as I was into her in mine. My reason for not discussing it was that I feared rejection. Again, that's me. You're the only one who knows why you let your XGF go without getting the facts you needed.

But you write that you did let her go while wanting to discuss the relationship without even trying to get the discussion you wanted. That's both passive and avoidant. My bet is that still hurts. You haven't written anything that says you've taken responsibility for that, and IMO, that's a problem for you.

*****

You raise theoretical question after theoretical question. That doesn't help anywhere near as much as sharing experience and how the experience affected oneself. Theory distances a person from their pain. That's avoidance.

I'm convinced healing comes faster and goes deeper when a person confronts the pain directly. You say you're not as healed as you can be. Actually, you're as healed as you're willing to be.

My bet is that confronting yourself will allow you to release the pain of passivity and make your thinking clearer and your life easier. But you're the one who has to choose to do te work (and do it).

*****

The above is based on my reading of what you write. I'd say that you think I misread you purposely because you're not reading yourself correctly - or you're not sharing some important stuff.

Obviously we're all a lot more than what we share on SI. IOW, I'm hoping these words are read to say that you paint yourself as passive and avoidant with your XGF, and I understand - and hope all readers understand - that's different from saying that you are passive or avoidant in any other area of your life. Further, your writing might have omitted something that invalidates my reading of your posts.

So I could be wrong. But i think I've identified a pattern in you.

*****

Thank you for answering my questions.

*****

I did not eat any sandwich at all with regard to R(econciling), and I never thought I did. I'm not alone in that.

Per my W, and per my involvement in SI since 2011, I see myself and the vast majority of BSes as collateral damage. My W did nothing to me directly. That's what I think 'the A is about the WS, not the BS' means, and I agree. My W fucked up; I didn't.

Every BS has a free choice between D, R, and staying without full R for any reason they think sufficient. I DID have to accept that my W had sex with someone else, but I've always thought her body is hers, not mine, and I never wanted to control her.

Now that I think of it, I've always wanted her to be with me voluntarily, but one of the reasons I stayed was out of duty, because of the M vows. That seems asymmetrical.

OTOH,my W helped me immensely during some very dark times for me. Maybe I stayed for her because she was going through a very dark time for her. Maybe I really had a debt to her, and staying was a way of repaying it.

Mainly, though, I think I'm a better me with her than without her, and I thought I wanted to spend the rest of my life with her. IOW, I thought R was my best option. So far, it has been a good one.

But my main point is that I entered R freely. No one made me stay. No sandwich was involved.

Some people think there must be a sandwich. That's wrong.

Some people think R would be a disgusting sandwich for them. I expect they're right - for themselves.

I'm surprised but also not surprised to hear you guys say that about AI lol. I do find that ChatGPT challenges my thinking much of the time, though in literally the gentlest, softest language possible... But maybe it also picked up on the fact that I like to "argue" and therefore assumed a bit of disagreement would be pleasing to me... It also definitely matters how you feed it details, ask it questions, and tell it to be. If you see something from one perspective and you give it biased context based on that perspective, that's all it has to work with, and it makes guesses about what you're looking to hear from it.

One book I read recently that I highly recommend is Co-Intelligence: Living and Working with AI by Ethan Mollick. He explains in great detail how AI works and how to get the most out of it.

post #57:

Yes, a bubble created by your own tunnel vision.

​No one is saying that what you're describing doesn’t happen. It absolutely does. WH and WW alike, WS are incredibly cruel, selfish, and abusive while deep in the A.

Well but in fact in another thread, when I mentioned that most WWs snicker at their BHs, one poster said "it literally sounds delusional". This is someone who posts a lot on here. So I actually don't believe this.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 7:06 PM, Saturday, July 4th]