SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

My previous post in JFO
https://survivinginfidelity.com/forums/?tid=654076&HL=78802

How long has it been? I took back the divorce papers just before christmas. We are both mentally stable. She has since been admitted for her anxiety attacks about 3-4 times for less than a week at a time. These have happened during my work trips; no episodes after the new year's. She has been very good to me and my son through all these months. Her uncontrollable crying has lessened, she only has her uncontrollable fits of crying when I describe to her my pain. Still looks at our pictures every night. Continually asks me to open up. We both quit our jobs, and I've been eating my favorite foods every day, courtesy of her (I dont know if they are still my faves, I think I'm getting tired of them lol).

I didnt continue the divorce because her remorse has been so real and her actions and words consistent, I doubt she can actually fake it for this long. But I can easily start it up again. I cry uncontrollably about once a week, and cry with dignity pretty much every day still. She does cry too about 3 times or more a day, ususally when the baby is asleep. I have regained a bit of weight, but she hasn't because she would only have an appetite when I speak to her, which I do about 1-2 times a day for about 2-3 hours. Playing video games in my spare time, which is relatively a lot now.
I moved last month in our bed, but no kissing or holding hands have happened yet. Actually we sleep in the same bed on the floor with our son since Christmas lol. Cant describe how much I love my son.

I actually have a fever and self-isolating because of COVID, hence my free time to write this post. Thank you to every one who have posted in my other threads, I re-read everything again and can't help but cry. You are very kind strangers.

For those BH whose wives were renorseful, can you describe their actions that cause dhealing and reconciliation? What about the truly remorseful WW, what were your actions? I want to see how my WW measures up.

How important was IC and MC? We haven't done any of those yet.

How important was the speed with which limerence towards AP disappeared contribute to your reconciliation?

If you want to see how your W is doing, my reco is to look at https://survivinginfidelity.com/topics/324250/things-that-every-ws-needs-to-know/.

On d-day, my W stopped lying. She took responsibility for her A and started answering questions. I think her last lie to me was the day before d-day.

IC and MC were crucial for us. You describe a woman who says her behavior depends on how other people treat her, which I read as needing a very high level of external validation. If I'm reading her correctly - and after all, I've never talked with her - therapy is essential. If she learns to validate and love herself, she could be a good-great partner.

I'm not sure the uncontrolled crying is a bad thing. It could be healing for you both - not necessarily, but it could be....

In any case, a good IC can help you process your grief, anger, fear, and shame out of your body, and a good IC can help your W learn to love herself and to stop hoping for someone else to 'make' her feel OK.

I can't comment on limerence, since my W was over it before d-day.

Sorry you're sick. I wish you a speedy recovery.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:53 PM, Sunday, February 13th]

I am only 2 months from Dday. (The infidelity occured many years ago, the AP is completely removed from our lives now.)

Right since then, my WW has accepted 100% responsibility, calling her A as the worst decision of her life. She no doubt, feels ashamed. Her actions were against her own values, she said during our MC session. She would come to me, asking me to tell her if there is anything she could do to help with my grieving. She apologizes regularly, called me the perfect person for her and it was stupid of her to sabotage a perfect marriage. I told her not to give me deadlines to get over it, to which she responded: this is not something anyone gets over.

One thing I am not totally sure is if I know everything relevant (obviously some details are forgotten due to the amount of time that has passed). WW has agreed to a polygraph, but I haven't gone through with it yet. For now, I am not thinking too much of the details (did the sex happen only once as confessed or was it perhaps 3 times?).

We are in IC and MC. It has helped me to some extent. Perhaps 2 months is too short a time to expect more.

What are you and your WW doing together to facilitate R? It's not just going to land in your lap without effort, right? Are you going to counseling? IC? MC? Are you building good communications? You say you're talking, but is the talking effective? Crying is a good stress release, but it's no substitute for working through the problems. And it's good that you're back in the same bed, but if your child is sleeping with you every night, how are you going to get back on track sexually??

Hi! Our problem with going to counselling is this: where we live (in Asia), mental health is seen mostly as a semi-myth. There are counselllors, I'm sure, but not as experienced in the west. In other words, counselling is almost useless here.

Another thing is that infidelity is so rare in our culture, that when it occurs, our minds collectively and without question would conclude divorce in a heartbeat. Id be willing to bet all my money that if we ever got a counsellor here, they would only drive us to separate. With that being said, WW has continually offered us to go to counselling to the US, since we (thru her inheritance) could more than afford going there and back once or twice a month. I didnt take that offer because even thinking about all the travel would be so tiresome, and we also need to take our toddler into the equation.

Besides, I'm a doctor, cant I read what the counsellors would say instead, and apply it to us?

ETA: I think this site is enough for our counselling needs lol

[This message edited by Confusedmd at 12:00 PM, Monday, February 21st]

The thing that bothers me the most, and is the thing that's hindering most of my progress in terms of acceptace of what happened is this: at any point in time when we became a couple, did she ever love AP (or anyone) more than me?

I know any kind of affair is unforgivable and incredibly hurtful. But to me, how can there be a possibility of anything positive in this relationship if she, at any point in our relationship, loved AP more? I think the answer to this question will determine my (our) future. If there's one thing that I think I wont be able to accept and reconcile from, it's this question about love.

BS and WS are welcome to provide me with answers/insights. Please. Thank you so much.

I’m confused. Didn’t you say she worked with therapists after her attempt at taking her own life? Is she still working with them? She should be.

Also I believe you need to be working with one yourself as well. You have been thru a lot of trauma. A trauma specialist would be appropriate for you.

Is it possible to do virtual therapy with a therapist in the U.S? I am not sure if they would do it but I do recommend trying to find one.

As for your wife and your questions, one technique is to get a notebook and ask her to start writing to you. The first topic I recommend is to ask her to write how she thinks you felt right when you discovered her affair.

Also in this notebook you can write questions to her in the margins of the pages she wrote on. In addition you can write to her back one separate pages.

It can become a document of your recovery.

In the end you may still divorce, but written communication can be very effective at aiding recovery. You can ask her to write about a lot of things. Even your question about her loving the AP more.

You both have a long road ahead of you. Best to use the time wisely.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 12:21 PM, Monday, February 21st]

You can find a psychologist / counselor who is prepared to speak to you via telehealth using Skype or the like.

I would avoid the commercial on line platforms. I’m not sure of the quality.

Choose a city perhaps in the US, Canada, England or Australia. Read around for reviews and contact them directly.

Reading is great, but a trained 3rd party will see things about your interactions you don’t, and can do things like setting exercises. A Gotman trained therapist is a good start.

OP - did you ask her if she loved her AP? If yes, what did your WW say? If not, why haven’t you?

In any case, there is no way to absolutely find out if your WW loved her AP, unless she answered yes to that question, which means she’s obviously being honest. If she said NO, how do you know if she’s being honest?

IMO, if you to want to R, assume the worst, in that she loved her AP, regardless of what she tells you. It was a very long affair. If that’s a deal breaker for you then you should divorce her.

In any case, there is no way to absolutely find out if your WW loved her AP, unless she answered yes to that question, which means she’s obviously being honest. If she said NO, how do you know if she’s being honest?

IMO, if you to want to R, assume the worst, in that she loved her AP, regardless of what she tells you. It was a very long affair. If that’s a deal breaker for you then you should divorce her.

Exactly. It's way too subjective a question. Unless she outright TOLD YOU, hands-down, swear-to-God-and-hope-to-die that she loved AP more, how do you ever quantify love?

You have much more to ponder than this specific issue.

Confused - You are going to get to the plain of lethal flatness.
You are concerned if she loved him more. I am going to be honest here. Yes, she did. All WS love their AP and themselves more than anyone else. They were uncaring monsters. they hate hearing this at first, then settle into realizing, they were awful during their affairs. If they don't make that realization, then boot her to the curb right now.

5 years of her giving more effort for the affair than for our relationship. They even had a "relationship song" together. Denied me sex, but doubled the effort for OM.

She loved him. She loved him more than you. So, you are here now trying to make it work. You need to dig deep into yourself and realize why you want to be with her. If it is because you still love her, that is ok. That means you want to reconcile.
I get the sense that you are fighting your culture and your internal morals to stay with her. What is she saying to try to keep you? Besides threatening self harm, what else is she doing to improve her marriage? I read cooking. It sounds like she is still not talking about her "Why". She is going to try to victim herself instead of increasing her value as a wife to show you she deserves to keep you. She needs to fight for you, not hide to force you to rescue her. See my perspective?

I think she could use the wayward side of SI here. Does she read English? If so, could you direct her to post her side over on that forum? I am pretty sure they will be gentle and rough in equal measures. Be sure she uses a stop sign. And don't read her posts. It will be taking away a great tool for her to get some direction and help. Hearing from others who have cheated, they won't let her use her shame or self pity to stop her from doing the work. She knows she has to do a ton of hard work and is using pity to stay your hand from leaving. She is playing chicken and driving to rug sweep. She doesn't know any better I bet. She is a product of your culture as much as you are. You can't fix that. She needs someone else to hold her accountable because she will do whatever you ask to fix the problem.
Good luck and think it over. You may want to tell her also to not read your posts.
As far the online counselors. With covid I know lots of them exist. Maybe try a few out and see if one understands your occupation or culture. That way you will feel more like the counselor understands your issues.

Stevesn - I was not accurate with counselling. There are practically no counsellors here in our country. More like religious leaders and mentors. Also, her family is very rich in business and politics and is one reason why Im keeping our country of origin a secret. We are in a 2nd world country, I guess. But if you knew my country and googled it, you know the situation about marriage counselling here.

Doinbettr - If thats true then I dont think I can reconcile. Maybe because Im such a hopeless romantic is why its difficult for me to accept.

One problem I also have and very ashamed to admit is, AP is half Asian and half American. So I know the differences in the penis sizes, and it makes me feel so much feelings of inferiority. I know western men are very good in bed, compared to us Asians. I also know how Asian women pine for the cool Americans. My wife had a very "western" upbringing, which is sort of opposite to mine.

At this point I know she is just throwing everything at me, hoping that one thing works and I dont leave.

I also know that she desperately wants me NOW. But the romantic in me cant accept her love for AP, no matter if its in the past.

Maybe she did love him more than me. This brings me so much pain.

She recently told that his was bigger visually and in her vaginal sensation during the act. Its my fault, because I forced her to admit it.

Its literally 3:30 am here right now. And its all I can think about. I need to wake up early. Maybe I wont sleep anyway.

She is starting panicking again because Ive been really quiet lately. Ive been very angry lately, but Im hiding it for now.

ConfusedMD. I think that you have a huge uphill challenge on two fronts - you both need highly competent individual counselors (IC) who have experience in infidelity/infidelity trauma. Unfortunately, that’s not likely to happen.

Second, assuming you were even able to to find highly qualified IC’s, and desired to eventually move to marriage counseling (MC), you would need to see a qualified MC with experience in infidelity/infidelity trauma. Again, that’s most likely not going to happen.

Without proper counseling, I’m not sure how you’re ever going to get to a place where you can successfully reconcile (R). I can guess what country you’re from, or close enough that is, and I have some familiarity with the culture. Many married couples there, though unhappy, stay together because of religious, societal, and familial pressures.

You’re in a very tough position and I truly feel for you. You deserve better.

What happened to the AP after exposure?

Does your wife hate him?

It sounds like you two are just hanging around the house. I suggest you both do something more constructive. Is there volunteer work you guys can do (together)?

She recently told that his was bigger visually and in her vaginal sensation during the act.

I think your wife isn't getting how this works yet. If your fear is he was better in bed, she needs to talk to you about why she chooses you over him in bed. My wife took a while to figure this out. You are going to need to tell your wife this. You also need her to TELL you why she chooses you over him now.
We talk about the "why" a lot on here. It is the reason the WS cheated. I can tell you your WS why, but she should really be the one to tell you.
Being half American also means lots of down sides too. Just having a bigger member doesn't mean you know how to use it better. (Graphic here) Being older than you I will say, it is more about what you do with your mouth and hands than your body. Think about sex with women. If they know how to touch you, lick you, bite you, etc. then that is way more fun then when you 2 are just having sex. Go read the Fifty Shades of Grey books and there is not a whole lot of penis in vagina talk. It is more the wind up to it.

So, stop being worried about this dude's dong. Lets get to the more important part.

Its my fault, because I forced her to admit it.

NO! She should have openly volunteered this when you asked. This is the kind of thing she needs to be willing to talk about. If she is hiding this fact, what else is she hiding. Cheaters think they need to control the problem afterward. They need to realize, them being in control, caused the problem. They are bad at driving, it isn't the car that crashed itself.
So, they need to realize, they are the broken piece. Your WW should hate that she chose the guy she did to cheat on you. That she can't take away your questioning her now and the rest of your marriage. She should be hating that, not you. She shouldn't be crying about it, she should be emphatically writing, trying to tell you why she wants you. Why you are her everything. Why she doesn't deserve you and will tell you everything from now on, no matter how private she thinks it should be because it is a marriage without anything held back.
She needs to tell you how much she hates who she was. That she wasn't under pressure. It was that she thought she deserved the affair. She thought she was in control.

Now, this doesn't mean it is the end. You are not going to leave your WW. I know, you know, we all know it. So, besides food and taking care of your son, what else is she doing?
I think she needs to start writing to you. This BTW is what my IC did. She needs to write to you first, 50 reasons why she loves you. Very specific reasons (Example: I remember the when I was having a rough week last year and you wrote me a "I love you, You'll be ok." on a piece of paper you hid it in your lunch). Make 10-20 sexual (This is so you feel desired).
After you read her list, because you seem kind of mad still, which is the right phase to be in, you write her a list back. This is so she knows and you acknowledge why you still love her. Then you need to tell her to stop crying. That her crying isn't fixing things. Tell her, when she starts to cry, to write out why she is crying and trace the source back to more than a feeling. It has to be traced to an event. This will be the start of her own internal therapy because it sounds like she isn't going to go either. She needs to stop feeling sorry for herself. She needs to start realizing she got herself here and she needs to dig herself out.
I think you moving back into the bedroom without any big changes is too early. You are doing all the heavy lifting in this recovery. She is going to think she hurt you, then she cried, you healed yourself, and then you healed her at the same time. That isn't how it works. She would kill to protect her son but not his father. My wife is this way too. Your wife needs to find her inner tiger mom and do the work to fix the marriage. It isn't being ashamed. It isn't crying until you come over and hold her. It is actually standing the F up and saying she is an awful human being, who doesn't deserve you, but she will spend the rest of her life trying to show you why she chose you over the other guy. That she has become a better person and that the new wife will be 100% more everything than the old wife. That you are getting the improved wife and the last guy didn't get the best parts of her, they are yet to come. She sees she wasn't 100% there for you before and will never not be 100% there for you now. That her tears can wait as she tries to stop your tears.
That is what you are supposed to be moving toward.
Feel free to tell her this because she needs to hear these things and I haven't seen them in a book. It's strange, this site and my IC had more insight than any book I have ever read to try to heal.
Good luck. You are making lots of progress. Try Elden Ring, it is awesome. Expect more from your wife. She has more to give, she isn't going to fix this by simply waiting for you to stop being mad. That is something else to tell her. That if that is all she wants, then tell her you will have a simmering resentment and lack of trust the rest of your life for her. She has more in her. Believe she can change and challenge her to do the heavy lifting. It sounds like she wants to, she just doesn't have the direction, so she gives up.

Honestly if you have the resources to move somewhere where you both can get solid counseling over a period of months or years, I would do it if you want to try and save the marriage.

Stevesn - He is in Asia so it is harder than most places to get mental health help.
Things like time zones, strictly virtual interactions, and language barriers over web conferences are tough. I manage an offshore portion of my team and one of my guys in the Philippines had a real hard time getting help when his dad died this year.

ConfusedMD, also maybe have the 2 of you watch the YouTube videos on infidelity. They have subtitles and interviews with real couples who are going through recovery.

He said they have the resources to move to the U.S. f necessary. With their story I would deem this as necessary if they Intend to try to rebuild.