SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

"I will not be married to a cheater," is what I told my ex-wife the day after d-day. It wasn't a threat, a manipulation tactic or a bluff; it was a simple fact.

The affair isn't over. From what you've written, it seems to me that she has no intention of ending the affair.

When someone shows you who they are believe them.

I know this is incredibly painful, Soon2B. For most people, the betrayal of infidelity is a profound shock and a severe emotional and psychological trauma. You're still in shock. You're experiencing trauma bonding. You're not thinking clearly, rationally. You're no more or less unhinged than anyone else might be in your situation.

She's unwilling to leave the company that she's started, and objectively, I get it:

This isn’t objective thinking. It's rationalizing. It's denial and bargaining, two very common and natural reactions to the process of grief. There's no shame in it. It's not a character flaw. It's simply how the brain functions.

I don't doubt that you want to preserve your family. That desire is the number one reason why most betrayed spouses choose to offer the GIFT of reconciliation. I cannot, nor will I ever, blame or fault anyone for wanting to do so.

However, there is absolutely no possibility of reconciling with a WS who is still having an affair.

Maybe... just maybe... when your WW sees a petition for divorce awaiting her signature, the light bulb might come on. It does happen sometimes.

Soon2be,

I don't know that there’s a right amount of time. Three months can be a long time when you're living through this, but it’s also not necessarily a long time to make a life-altering decision.

My probably unpopular opinion is that when in doubt, do nothing—with a caveat: give yourself a deadline. You’ve already given yourself three months; maybe decide what you need to see or know by a specific point, then reassess.

And honestly, is NC a firm stop for you? If it is, then maybe you already have your answer. If it isn't, maybe that's something worth being honest with yourself about before making a permanent decision.

Valid questions raised above. Why not go one step further? is fidelity a firm boundary for you? Is loyalty? Piece of mind? Trust? If so I'd suggest you should hold your NC boundary.

My internal, unspoken timeline has come and gone. I’ve been convinced of the need to divorce for well over a month, but before I actually initiate the process, I wanted to make this one last post to see if there’s any precedent here in the annals of infidelity for a happy successful R in a situation like mine.

For DRSOOLERS, we talked a bit early on about how this all came about. She was unhappy for years and was triggered by the death of her closest childhood friend after a five year battle with cancer. WW felt the need to live her life and didn’t feel like I was sufficient support (probs because I was managing everything at home with the kids so she could focus on caregiving). There were definitely many physical encounters, with international travel and some likely, but not confirmed, solely personal travel. I haven’t bothered to ask for a full detailed timeline because it seemed moot in the absence of other basic dignities (NC, open devices, etc).

Interestingly enough my therapist just sent my homework after yesterday’s session. Reading up on fawning behavior. Looks like I’m Bambi

DrSoolers, I respect your opinion and think you bring a unique and interesting perspective to the forum. I do feel that you sometimes overstate my position or spin my question, and I think that’s happening here.

I’m not suggesting he compromise on fidelity, loyalty, or trust. I think we all understand that NC would be preferred. However, he is not the first nor last individual who has been in a situation where NC isn’t possible. Some decide it’s a deal breaker, and others decide it’s something they’re willing to attempt with appropriate boundaries and consequences.

I’m simply saying that’s a decision he has to make for himself. If he’s still in doubt, I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing to pause rather than make a permanent decision today.

Thanks—I generally appreciate your input, but this hit a bit close to the bone. By asking that question, it felt as though you were implicitly presenting that forgoing NC as a plausible or acceptable outcome. I think the majority of the forum would accept in the majority of cases, it wouldn't be conducive to R.

​I wasn't trying to overstate your position; I was expanding on it. Posing those questions was my way of highlighting the documented risks that arise if he decides NC isn't necessary.

​Asking whether NC is a firm boundary is fair. However, if fidelity, peace of mind, loyalty, and trust are non-negotiable boundaries, maintaining NC is almost certainly required to preserve them.

​It is like asking, "Is it really that important to keep a child away from knives?" The knife itself isn't the main issue—preventing harm is. Banning knives is simply the most reliable way to guarantee that safety. On rereading, strange analogy but it's late here haha.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 10:34 PM, Thursday, September 10th]

Wayward here. After working as an investment banker, I spent the last 25 years as the CFO for several private equity and venture backed tech companies. I have worked with several top tier investors and can tell you that universally a relationship like this between co-founders or senior execs would be a deal breaker for an investor. Just way too many things that could go tits up and implode the company.

Maybe they do not think they will need outside investors / institutional money, but I think your wife is delusional if she thinks having both of them stay in their current capacity is a sustainable situation regardless of whether she wants to reconcile.

I have been following your posts on JFO and my opinion is there is little chance the affair is over. Best case is this is a temporary pause, but will resume the next time they are together (sounds like the emotional part has already resumed based on the text you recently discovered on the family vacation).

I think there are paths that result in one or the other keeping an economic interest in the business without them continuing to work closely together, but regardless I think NC is a minimum requirement to even consider not proceeding with the divorce. Hopefully just moving forward with it will hopefully be enough of a wake up call to get your wife to take the bare minimum step of NC and start really trying to reconcile.

I agree with NotMyIdentity in this respect: if you’re still in doubt, then you don’t need to make a decision.

However, I would ask what additional time is going to get you. If she’s not going to quit her job, then an essential prerequisite for R will never be satisfied. You run the risk of being in limbo, or becoming inured to her on-going adultery. And I consider it on-going, myself.

Separately, this is such a trigger for me:

WW felt the need to live her life

That line and "I deserve to be happy" are the two wayward lines I hate the most. They’re the quintessence of entitled, selfish cheating. Not even feeling guilty about it.

Sorry but that gets my goat. And now she "doesn’t want to lose you." That sounds selfish to me.

And there "must be a way" for her to keep you and her job. You know what that "way" entails? Soon2B letting her continue her affair while - how did you phrase it in your OP - she does "better" about maintaining a strictly professional relationship. Not actually maintaining a strictly professional relationship, but "better" than having sex with him a lot. Also sounds pretty selfish to me.

ETA: saw this from feelingverylow:

I have worked with several top tier investors and can tell you that universally a relationship like this between co-founders or senior execs would be a deal breaker for an investor

I have worked for the last 20 years at one of those top-tier investment firms in private equity and fully endorse this. Her business has massive key man risk as it is, and this would be a massive issue for investors.

[This message edited by Letmebefrank at 10:45 PM, Thursday, September 10th]

Cake eaters will eat cake as long as there is cake to eat. Which is another way of putting one of my favorite bits of advice: cheaters will choose both as long as both is an option. They have no desire to actually pick one or the other. Release that idea from your mind.

Which is to say, her affair is ongoing and your aren't even approaching reconciliation.

You will never be at peace with your wife while she is in constant contact with AP. This isn't coworker at a different location/make it work territory. It's co-founders. May as well be her second husband already.

My R only really started after I asked for a divorce, and my wife got a new job. Even then during the first part of it, she barely had work contact with R. Broke NC once for non-work related during that time.

I would say her AP/cofounder/future second husband will hang above your head like the Sword of Damocles.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 11:24 PM, Thursday, September 10th]

DrSoolers,

I realize you’re wanting to highlight the risks, but I feel like those are already a given, especially in this space, and that the OP likely understands them based on his original thread and this one.

I think your questions are rhetorically strong, and I would fully agree that this is not a path I would want to choose. However, as I said previously, not everyone has the ability to maintain NC for various reasons.

And so I suppose you are correct—I am asking Soon2be whether he thinks this is a plausible option for him.

But it kind of sounds like OP already knows what he wants to do.

Just wanted to express my support for you and say that I agree with most opinions here. I try to look at it from the perspective of yourself in 4 years. If you agree to this arrangement I just don't see any scenario where you are in a good place. All scenarios point to negative outcomes from a closed off anxious person with self esteem issues to a heavily traumatized PTSD patient. Even in the best circumstance in which she keeps boundaries with the AP. And it is very unlikely that she will, she is too far gone, obsessed with her affair and fully used to compulsive lying, manipulating and conspiring against you all the time (were the last sweet messages on LinkedIn? Lol). That's the alcoholic in the bar promising that she will try to remain dry. No chance. Start rebuilding your own life and if she is not available to be a part of the new life, farewell.

[This message edited by Itiswhatitis000 at 12:25 AM, Friday, September 11th]

I find one thing strange, and disturbing… Especially considering the OM is single.
The OM is romantically involved with your wife – both physically and emotionally. He knows you know, knows the conflict it’s causing in your WW household and therefore her daily life. Yet there doesn’t seem to be any effort on his half to get your wife to leave you for him. Nor is there any talk about this being a temporary situation, that soon she will be free so they can ride that white horse along the beach into the sunset…

Frankly – What’s stopping her?
More interestingly – What’s stopping him from painting some future with her?

Why does this grab my attention? Maybe because I can only think of two reasons…

Number one is that they both realize that financially a divorce could be devastating for the startup and/or her finances. That explains why they might both be OK with some sort of a holding-pattern. Only… that holding-pattern does not bode well for you. Already mentioned in a previous post what actions she could do to minimize the assets in a divorce.

Number two: She has more invested in this relationship than he does. What concerns me about that is that she is so committed to a startup with all the financial commitments that involves, with a man who can be this nonchalant to commitments… That’s going to burn her, and that’s going to burn the startup.

Personally – I like to be direct. If you are committed to divorce, or think that’s the only path open, then why don’t you just tell her that she’s free to go be with OM, that she can go be at his city and spend time with him for a week or so, or he can come rent an apartment in your area where she can hang out and then come back and that the two of you can find a temporary custody agreement of some sorts while a divorce is finalized. Set the sole stipulation that he never enters your house or is around the kids.
Don’t really expect her to agree or accept, but it could throw a spanner into the works when there really isn’t anything preventing OM from taking what she might imagine his future place in her life.

After reading through this—-

I think NC is vital for the creating safety in your marriage. You can proceed with filing if you want, but have you posed this to her yet:

"I am unwilling to remain married and work on a reconciliation while you remain in contact with your ap, someone you admit you can’t stop thinking about. There is too much risk being posed for me to invest myself in that.

I am still open to working on the marriage given you are willing to remedy this barrier. I would like you to think about this and give me an answer a week from today on a plan on how we can move forward."

If your therapist see fawning, so does the woman who has been married to you for 18 years. Meaning she doesn’t think you are going anywhere so she doesn’t see danger in the horizon. This is likely why she was so casual about continuing outside of work conversations. And then so blindsided that you were not looking to put up with it.

The truth about affairs is they are often addictive. Not because the ap is a prize but because they release a crazy amount of feel good chemicals into your system. Like gambling or shopping addiction, the addiction is to your own body chemistry. These types of addictions create the joshes of highs and the lowest of lows, and people often attribute that power to assigning meaning within the relationship with the affair partner.

So, in those cases (and I suspect it here but can’t diagnose your wife-I am not a mental health professional and even if I were I do not know her) the only cure is complete no contact and going through withdrawal. It was difficult for me, I had to be treated for OCD (the compulsion is most closely related to OCD, I don’t actually have it in other ways).

My point being I agree with you the no contact is likely critical, because there is often relapse.

She needs to draw a line in the sand here, and while I think it’s unfortunate that she probably has to leave her job or have a very uncomfortable conversation with her boss or partners, there is no other way around it.

Is the ap married? Does his spouse know? Informing the other spouse could be helpful.

I will just add that the withdrawal can take some time. It was six months or so for me—-but there was no contact and I was commited. I would tell your wife something like above and giver her a chance to make that commitment if you would like that chance to try. But I don’t think it’s safe to try in even a situation where it’s low contact. In essence it poses the threat if her "getting high" even having business relations with him.

My framing may be off, but there is a lot of info out there on it. Try reading some things Dr Frank Pittman has written in romantic infidelity. It’s a fairly normal psychological reaction people have in an affair that is heavily emotionally driven.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:54 PM, Friday, September 11th]

Soon2B,

I had one other thought I wanted to share with you. First, if you do try to reconcile please don’t stop posting because you feel like SI will disapprove.

Now to my main thought, and it may be obvious, but I have never yet let being stupid prevent me from posting.

You mentioned that every time she talks about her job you’ll be triggered. Fair enough, but isn’t even worse than that? One of the things that sometimes comes up is getting rid of affair mementos. The pictures, gifts, love letters, etc. etc. It removes reminders of the affair for the WS, and it helps to remove triggers for the BS.

But it’s kind of something deeper than that. What do we have keepsakes of? The stuff we want to cherish. It’s so unbelievably insulting and inconsiderate to want to keep ‘happy’ reminders of an affair.

Every success her company has will be a triumph for her, but a stab in the heart for you. What if they get that regulatory approval they need? She’ll be overjoyed. How will you feel? What if they get some award ("Biotech start up of the year!)? Will you go to the ceremony and sit there while she and AP are on stage being feted?

I’m assuming this A is the worst thing anyone’s ever done to you. How will you guys ever be able to navigate her celebrating important milestones that are inextricably tied to that?

Not a WS, but a member here since 2011. There's certainly more than a little evidence that your W is limerent, and her boss is her limerent object.

Getting out of limerence is difficult in any case, but going NC is a standard required step. Read the last few chapters of Love and Limerence.

I've never read of R even beginning with the WS still in the A.

Is 3 months enough? Well, your WS has maintained contact with her AP for the last 3 months, so what have you had for the last 3 months?

But what do you want to do? How will doing what you want help you live the life you want to leave? The more you make conscious choices and make the choices you want to make,

IMO, no one can predict how different your life will be if you file now from filing in 3 - 12 - 24 (etc.) months. Maybe one option is better then the other; no one knows which one or how it's better. Some counsel doing it now - but I think that's because they think that ends the pain sooner than any other option. But that's just theory. No one knows what is best for you, and not even you can predict much of your future.

The odds against successful R seem very long for right now. No one knows what will happen if you file now or wait. A real threat of filing or filing itself has often snapped a WS out of limerence and into R.

Bottom line: you need to accept that your M is over. You need to accept that your W is committed, right now, to a course of continuing to damage your M. You need to accept that you are taking action no matter what you do - even waiting id an action.

So you're left with making a decision about what is best for you. And you know better than anyone else what is best for you.

So what do you think is the best course for you?

*****

I expect The1stWife will be along....

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:17 PM, Friday, September 11th]

This is the problem with having sex with a deeply unremorseful spouse... all those love hormones fog up your brain and completely cloud your judgement.

If your wife were my friend, I would tell her (after slapping her upside the head several times), that she needs to stop jerking you around by the leash she has around your neck and be honest with you (and herself!) about the fact that her business and her AP are her true loves, and she will always be much more invested in them than she will ever be in your marriage and your family.

I mean, just look at how she phrased her "pitch" to stop you from proceeding with divorce. She said nothing about how she would make your relationship better, spend more time with the family, ask you for what you wanted, etc. She was completely focused on convincing you to accept her remaining with her business and in contact with AP.

So instead of fantasizing about how amazing a post-reconciliation relationship could be, you need to face the reality of your situation. Are you OK with playing second fiddle to the business and the AP for the rest of your life?

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 3:21 PM, Friday, September 11th]

If you were to go ahead with this arrangement as detailed, it will eventually kill you. One way or another. Emotional stress and strife at these levels will age you so fast, cancer would be a healthier alternative.

I have worked with several top tier investors and can tell you that universally a relationship like this between co-founders or senior execs would be a deal breaker for an investor

Another +1 to this. I’ve been on both sides of the table here and continues to be my world. Many here are running under the assumption her startup will be successful, and, at least implied, that perhaps you should stick around and reap the financial benefits, or at least that should be considered. That’s horrific advice. No amount of money is worth your soul, and that’s what will be consumed by you watching your wife continue her A, which she 100% will if NC isn’t established and enforced.

The other thing to point out is with the ethics and (lack of) integrity by the co-founders here (both of them), the odds this startup blows it out with a huge exit is incredibly small. 90% of startups fail (depending on industry) and when the founders prove they lack integrity in one area, they will lack it in others, and this will bear itself out. Your wife either doesn’t know this, or doesn’t care. She’s playing you. A few tears and some sex, and she’s got you questioning everything again. She’s manipulating you into rug-sweeping, until at least she can figure out how to cut you out is my guess. Your only chance to snap her out of this, assuming you desperately want to, is to go FIRM on "It’s him or me. Pick one. Now.". Picking you means no more startup. Sorry, she forfeited all that by her adultery. She needs to understand she’s not getting out of this mess of her own making consequence free.

However, as I said previously, not everyone has the ability to maintain NC for various reasons.

Valid statement.

Well, about 10 days ago I caught her again messaging AP about the family trip we just took and revealing that she couldn't stop thinking about him.

But... she has demonstrated quite clearly she will not keep communication limited to professional communication. You absolutely cannot R with a WS who is still texting the AP something so callous and cruel as "I thought about you the whole time I was with my husband/family." That is sickening. That’s an active emotional affair, and Soon2B, I cannot blame you (I would expect you) to demand a divorce then and there.

I admit I haven't been fully up to date with every update on your story (though I read your original post), but I understand that 18 years is an immense amount of life and history to untangle from someone you love. But, ​you cannot heal in the environment that made you sick. As long as AP remains in her daily life, her calendar, and her messaging apps, the affair is ongoing. "Strictly professional" is a fantasy when she was confessing romantic longing to him just 10 days ago.

Your therapist is right about the risk of minimizing. Fantasizing about an amazing "new relationship" with her requires a version of your wife who does not currently exist. The woman in front of you is still choosing her startup, her AP, and her emotional comfort over your pain.

That she will do better about maintaining a strictly professional relationship with AP.

Do you believe that? When someone shows you they can’t maintain boundaries, you believe the behavior, not the promise. She’s asking you to trust a version of herself she hasn’t demonstrated. You’re being asked to gamble your sanity on her future self-control, when her past and present show none.

She only reacted when consequences became real. Tears of panic are not tears of remorse. She wept and intimacy ensued because she suddenly realized her safety net was pulling away. She is panicked about losing the stability of your marriage, not genuinely broken by the damage she inflicted on your soul. Hold that line.

You can’t evaluate potential regret in a vacuum. You have to evaluate it against the actual conditions you’re living in. And right now, the conditions for reconciliation simply do not exist. There is no NC. There is no remorse. There is no demonstrated change. There is no safety.

Regret comes from walking away too early. You’re not walking away early, you’re walking away after months of watching her continue the affair in real time. If anything, the greater regret tends to come from staying too long in a situation that keeps hurting you.